
In this episode of the Nurse Dot Podcast, host Cara Lunsford engages in a profound conversation with Marie McKenzie, a seasoned registered nurse and sexual assault nurse examiner. Marie shares her extensive experience working with sexual assault survivors, highlighting the critical role of forensic nursing in providing compassionate care and justice. The discussion delves into the importance of survivor-centered approaches, the challenges faced by nurses in this field, and the transformative power of sharing personal stories. Marie shares insights on the nuances of trauma response and the significance of proper training for nurses.
Guest Overview
Marie McKenzie, RN, BSN, SANE, is a Sexual Assault Recovery Coach, award-winning author, and #1 Amazon bestselling writer. With over 25 years of nursing experience, she serves as Secretary of the Central Florida Writers & Publishers Guild and is a board member of the Florida Council Against Sexual Violence (FCASV). Marie supports survivors in overcoming trauma, rebuilding intimacy, and finding healing. She has collaborated extensively with organizations dedicated to trauma recovery and previously served on the board of The Inner Truth Project, a nonprofit focused on empowering survivors of sexual violence. Marie lives in Orlando, where she enjoys life with her husband, George.
Key Takeaways
- 04:01 - Marie McKenzie shares her journey of becoming a Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner (SANE), highlighting the importance of specialized training for nurses to independently handle sexual assault cases, collect evidence, and support victims.
- 07:03 - The role of SANE nurses in emergency rooms and rape crisis centers involves a multidisciplinary approach, working with healthcare providers, victim advocates, and law enforcement to ensure comprehensive care and support for survivors.
- 13:22 - The terminology used to describe individuals who have experienced sexual assault is crucial. Marie McKenzie emphasizes the importance of using the term "survivor" instead of "victim" to foster a sense of resilience and empowerment.
- 19:59 - Marie McKenzie outlines the process of caring for a sexual assault survivor, from developing rapport and ensuring their comfort to collecting forensic evidence and providing necessary medical care, all while respecting the survivor's pace and consent.
- 46:21 - The discussion touches on the availability of pregnancy prevention options for sexual assault survivors, noting that the provision of such care can vary by state, and emphasizes the importance of understanding state-specific laws and rights.
Episode Transcript
Cara Lunsford (00:00.142)
It's been a day of, I feel like everywhere I go, people are telling me that they're having technical issues and they're having problems and that their computers aren't working and their phones aren't working. so I was like, what kind of planets are moving around out there? Like what is happening? Okay, all right. Well, it only took us 15 minutes and here we are. Welcome to the Nurse Dot Podcast, Marie Mackenzie.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (00:15.195)
Right?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (00:21.883)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (00:26.203)
Yes, thank you for having me. Finally. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (00:32.159)
Finally, finally, finally. Okay, so now we have we officially have the floor to ourselves. We have the magic of my dear wife who does all the editing. So it's gonna sound amazing. Yay. And, and you know what, this is the perfect episode to follow.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (00:45.411)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (00:51.278)
Alright!
Cara Lunsford (01:00.354)
The most recent episode that I recorded, told you.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (01:02.147)
Yes, I can't wait to get connected. You said you were going to connect us. I can't wait. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (01:07.202)
Yes, yes, I'm gonna send an email. So like I told you the other, a couple of weeks ago, if it's two weeks ago, I think, was I interviewed Dr. Anne Burgess and I had not actually watched Mastermind, the documentary yet. And boy, boy, do you have to see it. So I went and I watched it after I talked to her.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (01:13.871)
Heh. Heh heh.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (01:18.585)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (01:27.449)
Yeah, I seen it.
Cara Lunsford (01:36.056)
which was really funny because sometimes I try not to know too much about somebody before I interview them because I want to be like surprised and I want to, I like the discovery side of it. And so afterwards I went and I watched it and my gosh was I fangirling. I was like, it's on Hulu.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (01:42.511)
Discovery us.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (01:53.507)
Is it Netflix? Okay.
Cara Lunsford (01:59.01)
That's my dog. My dog likes to make vocal noises and I'm going to ask my dear sweet wife to come get him.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (02:01.147)
I'm not even.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (02:13.925)
Yeah, I just asked my husband to turn this volume down.
Cara Lunsford (02:19.514)
my gosh. So, alright, I'm asking her to come and get the dog because he's going to be over there going, wah, wah, wah, and that's what he does. So.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (02:30.671)
So is my lighting okay? I put some.
Cara Lunsford (02:33.014)
Yeah, your light, your lighting looks good. You're a little. Yeah, he's going to start scratching like so he he looks all great and nice, but he's going to start or just you can leave them if he really wants to stay. Let him stay. What the hell was just let him stay.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (02:53.861)
When do you keep getting dark and then your light keep going? okay.
Cara Lunsford (02:57.754)
You know why because my wife keeps opening the door that goes out to the front and she came to go get the dog and so then like the front door opened and then it closed and so I actually have a light I don't know if you can see it, but it's on me and It's actually don't worry we're gonna get there Marie. We'll get there. We're gonna get I Don't know I like your I think the glasses look good
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (03:18.329)
Yeah, should I take off the glasses? Okay, no.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (03:25.711)
Yeah, okay. Yeah, I just got it. Yes, two days ago. So I'm very excited.
Cara Lunsford (03:26.06)
I like it, I like it. There we go. It's okay.
You just got your glasses or the light? they're very nice. I like them. Okay, Marie Mackenzie. Now we're gonna formally kick this thing off. Yay. Okay, so you are, you're a nurse .com ambassador, which is also very exciting to have you on the podcast. But I,
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (03:33.891)
The glasses. Yes, I love them.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (03:44.855)
Yay!
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (03:52.571)
Yes. Okay.
Cara Lunsford (04:00.16)
I'm really excited to have you on because like I was saying, we just interviewed Dr. Anne Burgess. She is this amazing, incredible woman who helped with profiling and for serial killers and rapists. And in the 1970s, like with the FBI, when it was not popular, not popular for women to be in the room and
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (04:21.847)
Wow.
Right.
Cara Lunsford (04:26.414)
To this day, she is like literally responsible for changing the way law enforcement actually saw rape.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (04:36.634)
Wow.
Cara Lunsford (04:38.35)
And the way the FBI saw rape, you know, that she changed the whole idea around it not being about sex, that it was, and that, and getting away from the victim blaming where it was like, well, she was asking for it or she was wearing this and this and that. And what was she doing out without her husband? And, and God knows any other thing that somebody might say, right? But she actually was really responsible for changing all of that.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (04:47.568)
Right.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (05:08.219)
for all that's must.
Cara Lunsford (05:08.66)
during like the early 1970s. So, my gosh, I know, right? Exactly. So it, I feel like it's just so incredibly appropriate that now we're going to have this great follow up conversation with you. Someone, God had a plan. And for those of you who didn't know, Maria and I tried to do this podcast a while back.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (05:11.299)
Wow, we need more of her.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (05:27.195)
See? God had a plan.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (05:36.477)
months, how many months ago are we working at this?
Cara Lunsford (05:40.258)
so many months ago and we could not get anything to work. We were both in hotel rooms and we were both like the sound, the audio, that everything was awful. And we finally just tabled it and said, we're gonna do it later. And then...
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (05:48.027)
I'm
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (05:57.775)
That night we tried three different mediums. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (06:02.466)
We tried Teams and Zoom and Riverside and anything else you can think of. And so, like you just said, Divine Intervention, you were meant to be in sequence with this other episode because she's gonna be, we're gonna lead the season with Ann Burgess, Dr. Ann Burgess, and we're gonna follow right up with Marie Mackenzie.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (06:11.865)
Divine, yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (06:18.234)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (06:28.443)
can't wait to hear them. Thank you so much for the opportunity.
Cara Lunsford (06:32.913)
All right, so Marie, tell us a little bit about, just tell us a little bit about yourself, some bio and just how you got into this area of nursing. And then we'll kind of get into all of it.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (06:42.777)
Ha.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (06:48.175)
Yeah. So as you said, Anne Marie Mackenzie and I'm a nurse ambassador for thenurse .com. I grew up in Jamaica where my role model of my aunt, Herma, was a nurse when I was growing up. So I spent a lot of hours with her in the hospital in Kingston, seeing the way she cared for and interact with our patients. And ever since I was a child, that's the only career I wanted. I wanted to be a nurse.
So this didn't materialize for me until I migrated to the United States. And I walked out of nursing school straight into the emergency room. Little did I know life experience and my chosen career would set me off with an answer that I had to, a call that I had to answer. So while working in the emergency room, I got the opportunity to work with sexual assault victims.
Now, back then when I started, the doctors would be the one who collect the evidence. The nurse would package and, you know, maintain chain of custody. So many years later, since 2014, I've been a trained sane. So now I independently interview victims, get their collect the evidence and maintain chain of custody until law enforcement, you know, picks it up.
Now as a SANE, SANE are registered nurses, specially trained to care for victims of sexual assault. You know, as nurses we are trained in interview, assessment, documentation. So all those transitional skills we take to this specially highly trained avenue of nursing. So the TLC, whatever the survivor needs, getting them comfortable with the interview and
They are the one who sets the pace for this interview. There is no rush or interrogation where we are concerned. it's reporting is up to them as long as they are above 18 years old. So, we encourage victims whether they want to report or not to get the rape kit, the sexual assault evidence kit, because later on, if they change their mind, at least the evidence will be there.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (09:15.067)
Like now in Florida, the evidence for unreported cases kept up to 50 years. So yes, so we'll have the DNA evidence if the victim decides to go to court. So there is a lot of having fun working with the multidisciplinary team, the sexual assault response team, which are healthcare providers, victim advocates, the crime lab.
It's amazing. Well, amazing work, not what we have to, the victims have to go through. But I love that there are people like us and the team that are there for victims because they need the support to get justice healed, thrive and survive. So my experience has been in the emergency room, plus with the rape crisis center in the community.
and that works differently in several cases and with how they operate. So say for example, in the emergency room, the victim comes in, they're greeted, whether they, if they walk in, then they're greeted by someone in triage, or if they, versus if they come by ambulance and they come back, we always have an assigned room. Sometimes if there's no saying on duty, then there'll be one on call. So then that person,
Cara Lunsford (10:17.954)
Yeah.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (10:39.865)
be called to come in. Plus we call the victim's advocate who is there for the victim. If law enforcement was not informed ahead of time, then and the victim wants to report or is a child or an elderly abuse case, then of course we call law enforcement. First it may be a patrol officer that comes to get basic information and then a detective is called.
versus in the community of Reap Crisis Center. I am affiliated with Victim Service Center of Central Florida, sorry, of Central Florida where our advocates or masters prepared social workers. So they're the one who does the, they answer the phone, does a preliminary interview, and then call one of the saints. We have two saints on call 24 -7.
for victim services. So then we go in and we're the one who does all part of the interview, collect the kit and medication if that's indicated. First, we make sure there is no medical needs that need to be attended to because of course that takes precedent over getting the rape kit done. And then we proceed from there. There's a timely examination that's done at the victim's space.
As I said, there is no rush or anything.
Cara Lunsford (12:09.698)
Wow. It's how long has it been that you could expect to have a sane nurse, a practitioner in the hospital or in the emergency or on call? Is this something that is all throughout? It's required at every hospital or is no?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (12:32.739)
No, not every hospital has a SANE program. Unfortunately, there's such a need out there. Even for the programs that have SANEs, they are short staffed. And this has been just a few years since SANE came into existence.
Cara Lunsford (12:56.128)
Now, oftentimes when you're working and you do hold this certification, and are you working like in the emergency room with patients and then all of a sudden you get pulled away to do something like this, or are you there just to do sexual assault?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (13:16.947)
No, if I'm, when I worked in the hospital as a scene, if I'm on shift, then I'm pulled away. If I'm on call, then I come in just for that patient.
Cara Lunsford (13:30.324)
Okay.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (13:31.405)
Whereas for the rate prices center, then we are only there for that one person.
Cara Lunsford (13:36.756)
Okay, okay, that makes sense. And then in a rape crisis center, how much can you do to assess someone's physical needs? Like how much are you capable of doing before you'd have to send them to an emergency room? Like if someone came to the center,
Like at what point do you just triage and say like, okay, this is someone who has to be like, we have to escalate this care.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (14:08.569)
Well, the advocates would have already identified an emergency unless that's something where the forensic evidence is and it's not visible or they didn't get a report. But usually they determine that before they even call us that that person is going to the hospital. Because there are times when we go to the hospital to do the kit because the survivor is not able to be discharged.
Cara Lunsford (14:15.095)
Okay.
Cara Lunsford (14:27.194)
Okay.
Cara Lunsford (14:37.503)
okay. Okay, I see. I see. So you can come in almost as a contractor through victim services. Okay. Okay. That makes sense. And do all of the sorry, I'm trying to understand this whole process because I it's so important for nurses to understand the role that they can play and in what setting that they can do this. So
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (14:37.859)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (14:44.205)
with through victim services. Yes. If that hospital doesn't have a scene. Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (14:55.502)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (15:02.853)
Yes, absolutely.
Cara Lunsford (15:06.458)
So if they are working for the victim, is it victim, what is it? Rape crisis center, sorry. If they're working for rape crisis center, does the rape crisis center, they pretty much go in? Do they have the ability to go into any hospital?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (15:15.769)
The rate prices center. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (15:31.668)
Or do they have to already be kind of contracted with that hospital? Okay, okay, got it, got it. It's so good to understand because we know that resources within the hospital systems can be very strained.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (15:34.041)
Yes, they have to have a relationship with that hospital. Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (15:49.615)
Yes.
Cara Lunsford (15:50.666)
And I think it's so important for people to understand whether or not you are a survivor of sexual assault and you need to know where you can go versus if you're a nurse and you want to work in this area. I think it's also really important to understand the differences and what to expect from each setting. Yeah. So you've been doing that for...
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (16:14.479)
Yes. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (16:19.918)
for 10 years, for the last 10 years.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (16:21.531)
Yes, 10 years, yes. And what I want nurses to know, the training is free. The Florida Council gets sexual violence, provides a 40 -year training. Then you go and do your clinicals. That's clinical training too. Then you get checked off. was fortunate I was able to be precepted by the physicians in the emergency room. Some nurses would go to the OBGYN to do a good, a certain amount of specular examination.
and be checked off for that. You don't have to be certified. There is a national certification that you can do. But most nurses are trained for as long as they do this part of their profession.
Cara Lunsford (17:05.528)
Wow, that's, it must be.
It must be really difficult, I imagine. And I did want to ask really quickly because I know that there's always changes in language, right? Some people find it offensive to call them a victim. Other people say I want to be referred to as a survivor. Yeah. What is kind of the, is there an appropriate terminology to be using or is it really just depends on the person?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (17:25.519)
Survivor, yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (17:36.717)
It all depends. And I struggle with using the word victim. If there's a word I could ban, it would be victim because it sort of fosters hopelessness and powerlessness, not taken into consideration, resilience and things like that, you know. So when you get rid of that word and use like survivor, it gives hope, you know, meaning that you can overcome, you can survive and thrive.
It's like there's one word I could get rid of, it would be victim.
Cara Lunsford (18:09.612)
Yeah, and maybe victim is used when someone doesn't survive. I mean, if someone was a victim of sexual assault and we kind of know that they didn't survive it, it's like, well then.
They were in fact, they were in fact a victim of sexual assault or violence or something to that effect. And I don't know, I guess it's always for us to try and decide how we wanna frame things, but I agree with you. I tend to lean more towards the survivor, especially if they are still alive, because I agree with you. I feel like...
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (18:24.419)
Right.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (18:32.729)
Mm
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (18:37.326)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (18:44.283)
Yes.
Yes.
Cara Lunsford (18:53.486)
highlighting the fact that they were able to overcome or to be strong enough to get through that. I definitely can see the difference.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (19:03.789)
Yes. Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (19:13.005)
Yes, it's like the victim is keeping them just so that experience and they're more than that. They're more than the experience, something that wasn't their fault. Right? It's right. Something that wasn't their fault. So we don't want them to remain victims.
Cara Lunsford (19:18.188)
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (19:24.652)
Yes. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And how it like, even when really horrible things happen, I started a while ago using language like this happened for me, not to me. And because it's more empowering for me to feel like, okay, well, this really, really hard thing.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (19:42.875)
Hmm, yes.
It is more important.
Cara Lunsford (19:53.762)
happened. But when I look at my life today, would I be the person I am if it hadn't happened? I? So when you look at it through that context, and it can be very hard, it depends on how much time you have away from the incident that can help you to have some perspective on it. And maybe be able to see it a little bit more around like, okay, I've evolved into this person I am today because of all the things that have happened in my life.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (20:09.209)
Yes.
Yes.
Cara Lunsford (20:23.67)
And so then you can kind of have a different perspective in a way.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (20:28.153)
Yes. And I also find that when you are traumatized, multiple people may experience the same event and some are traumatized while others are not. So it's all depends on what coping skills may be there ahead of time. You know, your, several of your previous experiences were. So that also affects how you.
handle whatever the situation is.
Cara Lunsford (20:59.596)
I think that that's a really good point. And I'd love for you to highlight a little bit because one of the things that I think is really interesting is around bias and like unconscious bias. And I think sometimes we are biased in a variety of ways, whether it be ethnically, racially, religious bias, all kinds of different biases, right? Gender and
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (21:27.632)
Yes.
Cara Lunsford (21:28.728)
but we also, I think, can sometimes be biased by how someone responds to an event. So if you see that the person is not dealing with it the way you would expect to deal with it, where you look at them and you say, well, they don't seem very traumatized by this. I would be so traumatized. And then are you questioning whether...
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (21:43.077)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (21:49.274)
Right?
Cara Lunsford (21:56.46)
Are they telling the truth and did this really happen? because we start to judge, we judge people based on how they respond to things, but you made a really good point just now about people respond differently based on their own experiences and coping mechanisms.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (22:02.757)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (22:11.343)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (22:15.385)
Yes, that's absolutely true. And I've seen that. There's one story that I heard about these two girls that were walking by a mental asylum. And one of the residents there flashes genitalia. And one was completely traumatized while the other one was like, that's nothing because she had
lived, grew up where that was like common occurrence. So yes, what's traumatized one person. So if you've developed the coping skills, or if it's that something that you've dealt with before, you may not be traumatized. You may be affected, but not traumatized.
Cara Lunsford (23:01.048)
Yeah, yes. Yeah, because I think desensitization to some extent, we're just products of our own experiences and sometimes we can be very desensitized to things that we otherwise really shouldn't be. We shouldn't be desensitized to those things. It should be shocking, it should be traumatizing.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (23:07.578)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (23:23.278)
Yes.
Yes. Yes. It should be.
Cara Lunsford (23:31.431)
And maybe at one point in our lives when we were much younger, when it happened the first time, maybe it was more traumatizing.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (23:40.963)
Yes. And then because of repeated, I was going to talk about that too, because of the repeated trauma, you have developed like a numbness just to get through it, just to get through it, to cope with it. So you're not crying anymore, you know, and it's almost like you're pleasing the perpetrator just to get it over with.
Cara Lunsford (24:11.052)
Yes. Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (24:11.875)
Yes, but then it's until the next time because you know for victims who don't have a voice, they may not be believed, they may not be in an environment where they can go share it with someone to see self -blame, self -blame, shame, guilt for whatever reason because you're not the perpetrator. Those things thrive in secrecy. So you keep that and then you know when you think of the
compound effect, something like that has on a victim, especially a child straight through to adulthood. You know, yes. Devastating.
Cara Lunsford (24:49.1)
Yes.
Cara Lunsford (24:53.556)
So tell me, take me through kind of a day. I'm a survivor. I'm a survivor of sexual assault. I've just had an unwanted sexual experience. And we'll just say rape.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (25:20.379)
Right.
Cara Lunsford (25:22.347)
And so can you walk me through a little bit of your process, what your process would be? Just sitting down with me and talking to me. If you were gonna talk to me as a survivor of sexual assault, how would you start?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (25:37.979)
Okay, first developing rapport, making sure you're comfortable. Are you in any pain? You know, making sure...
Cara Lunsford (25:46.87)
I am, I'm in a lot of pain. Like I'm in a lot of physical pain and I'm in a lot of emotional pain.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (25:49.487)
Okay.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (25:53.561)
emotional pain. So we are addressing that. I'm getting your history wanting to know the allergies. There's medication that we can offer because I want you to be comfortable. So I'm sitting with you eye to eye and we are having a conversation. I'm going to see if there are any injuries that needs medical care. If I'm in the emergency room, the physician is right there.
if I'm at the Ray Pryson Center, then I have to get you to the hospital. So because you need. OK, so.
Cara Lunsford (26:28.652)
I have some bruises. So I have bruises on me that I can see, but I don't think I'm bleeding.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (26:37.433)
Okay, so then we, you're staying with me. So I'm giving you getting your history, making sure you don't have allergies and getting you some pain medication to be comfortable. And then when we are ready, I'm getting you on, you get into a gown. We're collecting clothing as evidence. The interview is to gather information about what happened, which guides.
where we collect evidence. We get forensic evidence from like one lady told me he kissed me on the neck. Then I'd swabbed the neck and yes, and his DNA was found. Of course he went to jail because that's the only place they found his DNA. He raped her, but that was the only place they found his DNA. But he said he never touched her. So yes, they have no explaining to do. So we collect the clothing and we get consent.
And getting consent in the beginning, that doesn't mean you have to go through the process. Whenever you feel like stopping, it's all up to you. If you want to do the rape kit, the sexual assault evidence kit, it's up to you. If you want to stop it anywhere, I would educate you on the importance of having the kit done, whether you want to report at the time or not.
We have five days, 120 hours where evidence -based practice has found that that's the best time to get evidence, early as possible. But beyond five days, we may not find anything. So I go through all that with you, get consent, you get changed, and we start the process. I do interview, get head -to -toe assessment.
we are documenting, are collecting swabs, we're taking pictures. And all that goes to the crime lab, the law enforcement. So, and I'll disclose that to you because I don't want you to think, okay, we keep everything there at the hospital or the rape crisis center. We don't keep any of the, we keep medical records so that to be copies of the interviews, but like the swabs and everything goes out with law enforcement.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (29:03.867)
The hospital or rate crisis center has up to 30 days to pass it on to law enforcement. Of course, we don't keep it that long. It's gone by the same day or the following day in most cases. Then for non -reports, it's the patient's identification is not anywhere on where law enforcement can see it. So until they determine later that they want to report, otherwise they don't know. Now, one of the
Cara Lunsford (29:32.77)
Are they just given like a case number or something like that so that they can come back and say, this is my case number if they want to?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (29:35.213)
It gets a number. Yes. Exactly. Yes. A beautiful thing we have now over the last few years is what's called a track kit. There is a special QR code that they are given and they can track their, their kits through the system now. Yes, they can track their kits to whether the reports or the non -reports will, will get that.
and they keep that for themselves, yes. So when we offer new clothing at the Ray Price Center, we have fresh brand new clothing for them to take a shower. We offer them something to eat. Maybe we have medications for STD prophylaxis, pregnancy prevention for pain. And...
or advocates is there. One very important thing, whether you're at the hospital or the rape crisis center, there's an advocate for the survivor. So at the hospital, we don't do the kit until the advocate gets there, because they're there just to hold their hands or whatever comfort they need. A case I had in 2017 was a young girl and it didn't go to trial until last year.
She was my only child victim and it stayed with me all these years. And I was so excited when I went, she had the same advocate from 2017, the same advocates and they had grown very close. She, you know, she was there for her and I was so excited to see her. You know, this is going off on a tangent, but I, she, I never forgot her. And I always wondered what happened to her.
Cara Lunsford (31:19.018)
No, it's great.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (31:25.529)
And when the DA called me, you know, to tell me the case is coming up and everything. And I'm like, my gosh, I'm so excited. I always wondered about her. he said, you have? And I said, yes. And he said, why? And I was telling him how, you know, it touched me. I, you know, you just wish you could take her home. It broke my heart and I could. So, and he, I went to court. A part of what saints do, we testify in court.
And of course, the defense attorney will try to discredit you because the one I had in my last case, man, she went after me and the more she yelled and did her thing, the more comfortable I became. I don't know how or what, but she just couldn't rather me. One of the things they'll try to, because a lot of times victims will, the survivors remember different pieces.
of the incident at different times. So they may say something to me different or tell more to the police. So in this case, I'd ask her about strangulation and she said no. But then when she got to the police, she said something about the hand around her neck. And it was like, she was lying. So I'd explain to her. And I'm sure she knew if she were a defense attorney for a perpetrator of rape,
You should do your research enough to know that victims sometimes don't tell all the story. Some never tell all the story. And sometimes they remember it in pieces. So, and I just got comfortable understand and he got life. It was a jury. There was only one woman on the jury, all male, and he got life.
Cara Lunsford (33:13.729)
Wow.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (33:21.773)
So I was very excited. He wasn't sentenced the same day. It was like months later that he got life. So I digress. So where were we?
Cara Lunsford (33:29.012)
No, but that's wonderful. No, but that's exactly what I love about the podcast is I love how the stories unfold. And that's why conversation is so important because, and I try not to keep things very rigid because sometimes something's gonna just come up for you and you're just gonna wanna share it.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (33:43.066)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (33:54.905)
Yes. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (33:57.446)
And it's gonna be this piece of gold for the listeners and the audience. And they're gonna say, I wanna be part of that. I wanna do that. I wanna help put somebody away for life. And that's very powerful.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (34:06.179)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (34:11.193)
Yes.
Yes, and I found that sharing our story is powerful. I'm a survivor of childhood sex abuse. I was muted for all my childhood. I wasn't threatened. I just never told. It happened. I don't know if you've read my memoir. It happened in a house with other people. Yes, yes, it happened in a house with people. I never told them then.
Cara Lunsford (34:33.186)
The things that keep me up at night.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (34:42.551)
I was in my forties before I told my aunt for the first time. She died before I went public. And when it came out, so many friends and evil family members who came forward to share their own story because it was, always, can share it, but I can share people who had remained muted and the guilt, shame, self -blame that paralyzes you.
for most of your life. You are blaming yourself for something that's not your fault. So after that was released and I continue to share my story and see how much it has helped others to start healing and thriving. I'm now a sexual and intimate relationship coach and I do coach survivors.
and encourage them to share their story because it's not only helping them, it helping others who believe I'm alone. You're not alone. You are not alone. And share the Me Too movement and to think with all the thousands that stood up and say, me too, me, think of the thousand that still remain muted.
Cara Lunsford (35:53.74)
And that was Me Too, right? That was the Me Too movement.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (36:08.645)
for one reason or another. their stories are powerful. I love to encourage people to share their story.
Cara Lunsford (36:11.746)
Yes.
Cara Lunsford (36:18.188)
Yeah, and I wonder if sometimes, because I imagine sometimes I try to put myself in the listener's shoes or even just as someone who has had my own experiences, I think to myself, gosh, I'd love to be able to do this. I'd love to be able to be a sane practitioner and I would love to be able to work.
for the crisis center, would love to be, I'm not sure if it would be too triggering. Maybe I can't do it. I'm not sure if I could do it. Like, yeah.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (36:55.259)
And some can't. Some people can't at all. Because I've had cases that stayed with me, you know, as I told you from 2017, and I can still see the 14 -year -old girl in the bed. I know every word of the interview. I know some do not leave you. So you have to develop.
coping skills. You have to develop your self care packets. You have the self care packet that you're going to go pull out of. Otherwise you get lost. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (37:35.724)
Yes. And, and, know, it was interesting because when I was interviewing Anne Burgess, I said, how do you, how do you deal with all that? Like, how do you see all of that darkness and
really terrible things. And one of the things that she said to me is she said, I feel like as nurses, we are just so well positioned to do this type of work because we do see so much and we do experience so much and we have learned how to compartmentalize in a lot of ways and how to try and
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (38:05.466)
so much.
Cara Lunsford (38:16.438)
Yes, be in touch with our feelings, but not in the moment to kind of put a pin in it and deal with it later. Yeah, not in the moment, but deal with it later. And I, I definitely appreciate the fact that sometimes when you can be on the other side of something, it can have its own catharsis, right?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (38:20.858)
Right.
definitely not in the moment.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (38:43.619)
Yes or yes?
Cara Lunsford (38:45.868)
Has it been like that for you? Do you find that you've had your healing through this work?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (38:47.618)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (38:51.629)
Yes, yes, it's cathartic. Someone had asked me one time and I said, it's like providing what I didn't seek for myself or received. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (39:07.042)
Yes, like watching someone get a life sentence.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (39:10.979)
Yes, dear Jesus, yes. Or just being there for the survivor in the emergency room. I'm so glad that I was trained and I can perform this independently because I've worked with physicians and I'm going to say this on air. I once was doing it. my God, it's so heartbreaking. The doctor was performing the exam and he showed the speculum.
Cara Lunsford (39:39.139)
He what?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (39:40.141)
each show of the speculum.
Cara Lunsford (39:42.998)
like shoved it.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (39:44.249)
show with a speculum. It's like I don't want to do this. Yes. It broke my heart because this is someone who was just traumatized. And here you are. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (39:48.623)
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (40:02.489)
Yes, and it's been a lot of years and there are things you don't remember and that was one of the saddest moments of my nursing career, watching a physician do that to a rape victim.
Cara Lunsford (40:17.804)
and
And how did they respond?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (40:23.995)
She didn't flinch or anything, but I flinched. I don't know if she realized what happened, but I saw and I felt it. I still feel it.
Cara Lunsford (40:30.221)
Cara Lunsford (40:44.216)
So when you're doing that kind of pelvic exam, what do you do? What's the process? What's the talking to the?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (40:44.325)
So there.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (41:00.163)
We communicate every step of the way. I'm going to touch your hair. I'm going to insert the speculum now. I'm going to do this every step of the way you're communicating. You're telling them everything. Yes. There is no surprise move. Yeah, no surprise move. And you're going as quickly as you can and as gently as you can because you want that part to be over quickly.
Cara Lunsford (41:15.766)
And with this physician, was just a surprise.
Cara Lunsford (41:29.314)
Yes, of course. That's gotta be so difficult. So like you said, the ability to now do this autonomously.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (41:29.423)
But yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (41:43.521)
Yes, from someone who really wants to be there for survivors. So I had one experience where one did not want me for her nurse. I walked into the room and she said, I don't want you for my nurse. Yes, it was in the emergency room. And she said, I don't want you for my nurse. And I went back and I told the, the charge nurse and she said, I'm not reassigning you. Now I was the only sane.
Cara Lunsford (41:49.868)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (42:13.561)
And I was the only one who wanted to care for her. And I went back and I explained to her, know, the charge nurse is not going to reassign you. And she said, okay. I mean, she probably thought she didn't have a choice. I didn't think that was an appropriate decision on the charge nurses part that was like victimizing the victim again. But I went, I took care of her and she was so happy.
Yes, she was very, very happy and thankful. I never asked her why she didn't want me to be her nurse. That was not important to me. I could remind her of a perpetrator, who knows? You know, so, or another sad time in her life or something. I don't know what it was, but that was not important to me. I went back and I gave her the best compassionate care and she was happy. So.
Cara Lunsford (43:02.221)
Yes.
Cara Lunsford (43:10.402)
I think that's such a great example of how we oftentimes have to put our own egos, yeah, we have to put our own ego aside and say, I don't know, I don't know what's triggering this person. And you have to be, I think probably have a good enough confidence and self -esteem to say, this person doesn't even know me, it's not personal.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (43:10.543)
that make me happy.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (43:16.953)
Yes, it's not about me. Yes, not about me. Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (43:31.543)
Exactly.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (43:36.257)
It's not personal. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (43:37.578)
It's not personal, even if it feels personal. But I think what you've really been able to describe even in this podcast episode today is, first of all, what is this specialty that nurses can explore?
especially if it's something that is really, something that they're passionate in or they just want to have this extra set of skills. And now I have another question. I'm assuming, and this is gonna maybe sound biased, but how many sane practitioners are men? Is it?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (44:11.246)
Ha ha.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (44:26.457)
Not many. I've never seen, I've never worked with one, but I heard there are a few. But I would like to see more. They always say I'd like to see more.
Cara Lunsford (44:29.208)
that common.
Cara Lunsford (44:40.674)
Well, yeah, I think that there's, can understand how it might be triggering, right? Especially for a female. Now, maybe not so much for a male or maybe more so for a male. I'm not sure just from a of a machismo perspective, but.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (44:46.011)
Especially for females.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (44:58.041)
Yes.
Yeah, but remember perpetrators are female and male. Yes, we don't talk about the female perpetrators much, but they're more they're out there more than you may think. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (45:04.77)
Yes. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (45:15.11)
How do they typically get, what's the profile usually of a female perpetrator? Is it oftentimes like a parent, a mom, a parent? Is it like a parent, a mom? Same.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (45:26.617)
And what?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (45:30.715)
Yes, just like the male, their parents, extended family, siblings, clergy and the school, 85 to 90 % of perpetrators are known by the victims. Yes. From parents to siblings, to churches, schools, neighbors. Yeah, so just a minimum.
Cara Lunsford (45:58.083)
Yeah.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (46:00.291)
stranger. So we use it
Cara Lunsford (46:02.668)
And is there a percentage generally between male and female perpetrators? I mean, I think we kind of know that there's been historically more male perpetrators.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (46:13.627)
Yeah, so it's more men, I think over 90%, I would say, but don't quote me in that I'm not positive off the top of my head right now.
Cara Lunsford (46:21.066)
Yeah, we know it's probably a fair, don't want to say assumption, but probably based in some evidence.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (46:28.282)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (46:32.857)
Yes, yes. Yeah, there are lot more men than women, perpetrators.
Cara Lunsford (46:40.918)
And I'm guessing that you probably have very similar theories to what I, or not just theories, but what's based in a lot of research is that it's a power. It's a power thing.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (46:51.631)
Mm
yes, it's not about sex. It's control, you know. Don't believe in getting consent. It's like, I see that and I want it. You know, I gotta have it. Yes, it's just control. Nothing to do with sex,
Cara Lunsford (47:08.472)
Control, Empower, yeah. Just a powerful, yeah. And it's really interesting because I'm really fascinated by sociology. I know I've said this before on the podcast that just like a study of human nature is something that's really interesting to me. And throughout time, I was talking about this recently where
they had seen a big, I guess a huge spike in these cases, these kind of sexual assault cases in like the 1970s. And then I was thinking to myself, well, you know, in the 1970s, women were kind of burning the bras, right? Like they were like asserting, they were asserting themselves in their femininity and their power and, you know, kind of fighting for their rights. And I thought, well, isn't it interesting?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (47:55.587)
Yes, femininity, yes.
Cara Lunsford (48:07.736)
that there was also this huge uptick in the 1970s as well. And I wonder if it's because of this power dynamic where it's like, no, they're rising up. No, you gotta put them down. You gotta put them back down. And how much of that has happened throughout history.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (48:15.163)
Mm
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (48:22.415)
Yeah, put them back down. Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (48:31.949)
Yes, intimate partner violence, rape, husband raping their wives, you're my property. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (48:41.25)
Yeah, I mean, even in the 1920s during the women's suffrage, right? It's like, I wonder if there was kind of a spike scene during that time where maybe there was more of these kinds of assaults.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (48:44.843)
Yes, yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (48:51.791)
Bye.
Probably. When I started looking into rapes and did you know there are a of rapes covered in the Bible? my gosh. If you, it's unbelievable. One of the prominent one, second Samuel 13, Tamar, the daughter of King David that was brutally raped by her step brother, Amon.
Cara Lunsford (49:03.584)
No, I did not.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (49:22.497)
So back then the law was that if you were raped, the perpetrator must marry you because that was the law to protect the victim, to protect the woman. Because now if you're not a virgin, no one else is going to marry you. That was how it was back then. Yes. So the way that it happened was he fell in love with his sister, step -sister and wanted her. So he feigned illness and
Cara Lunsford (49:41.272)
Wow.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (49:50.699)
ask his dad to send her over to make him food. So he raped her, threw her out of the house because then he didn't, he wasn't lusting for her anymore. She went home, told her brother and her dad. The brother said, hold your peace after all, he's your brother. But he was, he was angry about it. Dad did nothing. So that's another survivor who didn't get any emotional or
support at all or any treatment. And then in the brother Abs - Absalon, I remember what the name of the brother was. So you end up killing the rapist a couple years later because there was, it wasn't dealt with. So the secrecy just stayed there and festered and festered. So that's one dysfunctional family. And she remained shut in for the rest of her life. She never married. There was nothing follow up about, yeah, how she.
ended up never married because she wasn't a virgin anymore. Nobody was going to marry her. So she remained in her brother's house. So there are countless numbers of rape. Women being abused. Yes. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (51:04.702)
I'm sure throughout all of history, there must just be countless experiences.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (51:11.097)
Yes, women and girls, our children are not safe, you know.
Cara Lunsford (51:18.504)
it's. Do you have children, Maria? I can't remember. Do you? You have two stepdaughters. Yeah, I couldn't remember, but I was like, I think like I've I had some recollection of of adult adult children. and I are they are.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (51:19.343)
Yes, and that's.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (51:24.154)
have two stepdaughters they're adults now yes
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (51:34.371)
Yes. Yes. Alex and Brayda.
Cara Lunsford (51:44.076)
Are they doing anything similar? they do nursing? Do they do anything like that? are they doing other things with their life?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (51:50.703)
Well, Alex says into mental health and Brianna does our whole thing. She's our dad. Nothing doesn't want anything to do with health care. No, no.
Cara Lunsford (51:56.684)
Yeah.
Nothing health related, nothing at all. Well, I feel like this was such a great interview because I feel like you shed so much light on what it is to work in this field, what you've done, how you cope with it, the healing that it's brought you. And so the last thing I would say is where can people go
for both, okay? So if you're a nurse and you think this is your path and you want to go this direction, which direction do they go? Where do they go?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (52:42.821)
So there's the Florida Council Against Sexual Violence. There is RAINN .org. There is the International Forensic Nursing Association. So if you Google SANE or Forensic Nursing, you'll get all that information there. Or reach out to your hospital. There are a lot of hospitals who have information on that. But your state sexual assault response.
Cara Lunsford (53:01.825)
Okay.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (53:10.703)
team you can get information from also. So each state as like we have Florida Council against sexual violence, each state has its own. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (53:14.488)
That's perfect.
Cara Lunsford (53:20.404)
okay. And then for...
Cara Lunsford (53:27.596)
I actually wanted to ask you another question, but I'm gonna ask this one first. then similarly, if you have survived an incident of assault, do they go to similar places or where would you go if you had, I mean, obviously if you are in really bad shape, you would go to the emergency room. Yeah.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (53:51.215)
Yes, safety is number one. Yes, call law enforcement or go to the emergency room. So you can report it at the emergency room. They have processes that they follow to get law enforcement to the hospital and get you, if they don't have a sane program, then they know where or you can go and get the appropriate care that you need.
Cara Lunsford (54:15.052)
Okay. And for anyone out there who's listening, who is worried that if they call or they ask for help, they're not going to be required to report anything. They just...
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (54:29.467)
Yes, there is no requirement to report if you're below 18. Of course, we are mandatory reporters for anyone below the age of 18 or anyone one that doesn't have capacity to consent, elder abuse or any adult that is impaired. Do you have your adults with disability? So things like that will need to report. So if you don't want to report to the police, come on in for care. There is no
that you have to report to get the care that you need. We can do the kit and keep it as a non -report. In Florida, it is kept without your identification for at least 50 years. So you have time to think about it. We are able to collect the evidence up to five days after the rape. So.
But we encourage you to get it done as early as possible.
Cara Lunsford (55:32.283)
Those are such great words to leave people with. the very last thing I was going to ask you about, because I know it's such a sensitive topic, and we're in the middle of an election year, and there's a lot of conversation happening about women's rights. And so the question I would ask is, depending on the state that you're in, if you
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (55:45.721)
Yeah
Cara Lunsford (56:01.09)
go to the hospital, you go to the emergency room. I think earlier you mentioned a little bit about, is it like plan B or where you're offered maybe some sort of, I don't.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (56:11.972)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (56:15.973)
pregnancy prevention, prophylaxis.
Cara Lunsford (56:17.294)
Pregnancy, yeah, pregnancy prevention, prophylaxis. Is there anything in our existing kind of laws that are preventing that from happening or do we know that in every state, kind of regardless of like the Roe v. stuff, that are women all entitled to have?
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (56:41.455)
These things are different from state to state to be amazed. So I know in Florida we do offer it to those. There's Plan B and another one that is offered. yeah, so I couldn't speak for every state. Yes. Because even dealing with rape from state to state, the laws are different. Unbelievable. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (56:53.068)
Yeah. So you just kind of have to check with your state. Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (57:02.242)
Yeah, so it's good to look into just to understand your own state like legislature and everything, what your rights are. Yeah.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (57:05.678)
Yes.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (57:12.417)
Exactly. And what you can do, who to report to, and where can get the help that you need. Yeah, because, I mean, we want survivors to be treated respectfully and get the appropriate care that they need to start healing, thriving and surviving.
Cara Lunsford (57:29.666)
Yep, absolutely. Well, Marie, I cannot thank you enough for coming on. I just absolutely adore you. I'm so grateful for all that you do for women and men, especially in the state of Florida. They're lucky to have you. And we're lucky to have you as an ambassador.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (57:36.251)
Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (57:44.795)
Thank you.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (57:49.604)
us.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (57:52.901)
Thank you, thank you. Can I share some tips with our young people out there? Yes, and I just want to encourage especially our young ladies, young college student to practice good judgment. You know, we don't want to, we're not victim blaming or shaming, but practice good judgment. When you're going out to bars, go it with friends, have a designated driver.
Cara Lunsford (57:56.544)
Yes, yes, absolutely. Please do.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (58:20.559)
Don't accept drinks from anyone. I know there are a lot of dating apps. Please make sure you meet in a public place. Don't go back to there. You may meet someone for the first time. The date is going so well and you're invited back to his place. Not that night. Get to know that person better. had victims, survivors who met in a public place.
felt comfortable and went back to his place and was raped that same night. Share your, if you're taking a Uber, share the location, you know, cause you can share with the loved one. Like when I'm taking a Uber, I always share with my husband. You can share the license plate and it tracks you all the way home. If it's just your iPhone, share the location with a friend for the time that you are so they can find you.
Have a safety plan. If I text you this word, then that means I need help. So yeah, be careful. And if you're sexually assaulted, remember it's not your fault. Go and seek help. Go and seek help. Share with someone. Don't feel guilty. Don't blame yourself. Don't feel ashamed. Don't keep silent. So you can start healing right away. Get help.
Cara Lunsford (59:47.48)
Thank you so much, Marie. What wonderful words to end this with. And I just got chills. It's just so good. I hope everyone listens to that. And because that is very, very sage wisdom right there. So thank you, Marie. Thank you so much. And I can't wait for this to launch. I'll let you know as soon as it's out.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (59:49.016)
You are welcome.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (01:00:04.121)
Yeah, thank you.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (01:00:11.875)
Yes, thank you so much. Yes, I'm so excited that we got it done. Yes, and it felt so it felt good that we needed to do this. But as I said, it was the right time. Yes.
Cara Lunsford (01:00:16.298)
Me too!
Cara Lunsford (01:00:24.205)
Yep.
It was exactly the right time and it's gonna go, it's gonna be the second episode of the fifth season and it's gonna be perfect.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (01:00:33.689)
Yeah, when does the fifth season start?
Cara Lunsford (01:00:36.748)
good question. No, it starts, actually, no, it's next month. It's actually it's, it's, I think, just right before Halloween. Yeah, I believe so. I believe it's just right before Halloween because we, yes, it's not very, it's not very far off.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (01:00:37.851)
This month, next month.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (01:00:47.502)
Okay
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (01:00:51.695)
So just a few weeks from now.
Marie McKenzie, RN/SANE (01:00:56.354)
Yes, thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you so much. Okay, take care. Okay.
Cara Lunsford (01:00:59.136)
All right. Thank you, Marie. See you soon. Bye.