Episode 3: The Right Fit

This transcript was generated automatically. Its accuracy may vary.

Cara Lunsford

Oh, hey, nurses. Welcome to the Nurse Dot podcast. Giving nurses validation, resources and hope. One episode at a time. Oh. Joining us today, we have not one, not two, but three incredible nurses. First up, Andrea Dalzell, followed by Felicia Sadler. And then last but not least, Holly, Carla. These are nurses, each with their own set of experiences and insights.

And in this episode, we will take a deep dive into what they consider vital when looking for career growth and change in nursing. I'm your host, Carolyn Spears, registered nurse and VP of community at Nurse Icon. Oh, let me just start off by saying that when I met you for the first time at the nurse Power brunch and I had been following you, Holly Blue, like my my account.

Holly Blue had been following you forever and ever. And then, of course, now Holly Blue is nurse dot com, and I, I, I told you I was like, I'm totally fangirling right now. I'm like, having my own little fangirl moment. And because you are just, like, this incredible inspiration, I think, for so many, because the fact that talk about obstacles and having to overcome adversity and how you have leaned into that and allowed it to help make you the person you are today, yeah, is just really beautiful.

So I just wanted to start by saying that before I have you introduce yourself to the audience. I just wanted to say the seated nurse, if you're not following that account, you're missing out.

Just issues that I do. I do. Oh, my. All right.

So start out with just introducing yourself to our lovely audience, and then we'll kind of get into a little bit about what looking for a job has been like for you.

Andrea Dalzell

Yeah.

Cara Lunsford

And we'll. And we'll kind of dig into that.

Andrea Dalzell

Yeah, sure. So my name is Andrea Dalzell, and I am affectionately known as the seated nurse, and that is because I am the first person to go through a nursing program with the use of a wheelchair in New York State. I'm not the first in the nation, but I am one of very you and I have been even smaller group.

Those of us who are speaking out about disabilities within the nursing profession and bringing some light over to understanding that the profession is so vast that we shouldn't be closing the door on our nursing students with disabilities. So ensuring that the doors open for others to be able to to come into the profession and not have to just be worried about having the stigma of having to be healthy, whatever, quote unquote healthy is in order to be a nurse.

Cara Lunsford

Absolutely. Because we already have a shortage.

Andrea Dalzell

Oh, yeah.

Cara Lunsford

Oh, yeah. And I like to say we have a shortage of nurses willing to work in this current environment. I don't necessarily think we have a shortage of people. It's just a shortage of people willing to work in that type of environment, which has not been healthy for ever and ever and ever, but has gotten worse.

Andrea Dalzell

I like to say, who knows it better than the patient who's been there 24 seven for most of their life? I mean, we literally can do the nurses and the seniors and the doctors jobs in our sleep because we have been immersed into that environment our entire lives. Now, imagine me being a five year old child, being diagnosed with transverse myelitis, leaving me unable to walk.

By the time I was 12 years old. So between five and 12, I have one perspective of what it looks like to be a consistent patient. And then from 12 to now, I'm I'll I'll give my age away. I'm 35, having had 38 surgeries, numerous hospital stays, multiple teams of of health care workers working on me to to give me the life that I have today.

Right. To give me life. I don't want to say give me the life that I have. I've created the life. Give me life that I have today and then be able to turn around and enter back into the profession and do that for someone else. I mean, there's there's just a world of experience that we don't tap into.

For those that do do make that turn and come back into the profession. And yeah.

Cara Lunsford

That's a perfect example of empathy, right? So we as nurses, I would say that we tend to be empathic people, but if you haven't truly experienced something, the most you can really draw from is maybe compassion, sympathy, but not necessarily empathy.

Andrea Dalzell

Right.

Cara Lunsford

So what you're able to draw from is actual empathy. You've been there. You've experienced it. You've been on both sides of that bed. So now you you're on the caring side. But I'm sure that you're still a patient. You still have. Yeah, you're still a patient. So it's a disservice to the profession when we don't open up our minds and our hearts and and see the the potential of what people can bring and not just see them for their limitations, not just see them for what they can't do or what's going to be difficult for them to do, but instead, what is the massive amount of benefit that they are able to bring to the

table? What are some of the things that maybe their colleague can do who had have a different set of mobility.

Andrea Dalzell

Right.

Cara Lunsford

Versus, you know, how do we team up, how do we become better teammates or even so.

Andrea Dalzell

Or we're giving a different lens to how something is done. We all know we like we love to joke in nursing that like, you know, the way I will put together this, this whole I've set up is going to be different than how the next four nurses are going to do their IV. And they will all probably be standing and they will all be able to reach.

Now, let's put the short stature nurse there. Let's put the nurse that's using a wheelchair there. Let's put the nurse up, maybe has a limb difference and watch them now have ten different nurses doing an IV set up completely differently. And none of them are wrong. It's just different, different ability. And we're opening up that perception into.

Cara Lunsford

I love that. So when you are looking for an opportunity, I'm going to go back really quick because one of the things that really stood out to me when I talk to you and when I listened to you speak was just about the number of interviews that you had to go through in order to get a job.

Andrea Dalzell

Yeah, I think that this is such a pivotal moment right now because, you know, October is the National Disability Employment Awareness Month. And let's throw it back to 2018. I had just finished my 18 program and I am in New York City. So you know that there's jobs, it's urban city. I can I should be able to find something.

But then also put in the fact that I have a physical disability of sitting in a wheelchair. My grades were always great throughout school. I had to get through nursing school. So I think and I passed my boards on the first try. So what I am expecting that I'm going to land a job and I wanted clinical practice because my hope and my dream at one point was to become a C.R..

Anthony So that's what my focus was. And I was like, okay, well, I have to have clinical practice in order to get there. You have to have a certain amount of hours and certain specialties and you have to start somewhere. So that would be like Eddie Med Surge. The common areas that our professors are telling us we have to get into.

And then being told that I would only get a desk job. And then that started to flow as I was doing the interviews for all of these clinical positions, starting in rehabs, starting in different clinics, just outpatient clinics, I was told that I couldn't get the job. So 76, 76 clinical interviews, that's not including the outside interviews for jobs.

That is just 76 clinical placement jobs.

Cara Lunsford

So let's just like sit with that for a second, because what I don't want to happen is they don't want for us to breeze by that number. Yeah, like we got to sit with that for a second because everyone who's listening right now, I want you to take take that in 76 clinical interviews.

Andrea Dalzell

Yeah.

Cara Lunsford

I would say 90%, 99% of nurses will never have to experience that.

Andrea Dalzell

I mean, I know them firsthand. For those that have visible disabilities, I know that they face a lot of this backlash and then they give up. By the time they get to interview 15, they're like, they're done with it and they'll just take the desk job because we have bills to pay. Yeah, you know, I was lucky. I have a supportive family.

I didn't have to necessarily rely on so many school loans, but at the same time we have bills and who can go through 76 interviews without having some type of a job.

Cara Lunsford

And that's a great segway into exactly why we're doing this episode, because I like to assume I, I tend to assume positive intent. So when I think about different types of health care institutions and how they are recruiting new health care talent, when I look at those job descriptions and how they're going about recruiting that talent, sometimes I can see like clear bias, but oftentimes it's just that I think there's a lack of education, a lack of awareness, and in some ways they're just not even thinking about how this could be coming across or what they're missing out on by not having inclusive language in those job postings.

Andrea Dalzell

I want to say that someone with a disability applying for a job is not unrealistic to their own disability, and I think that they've already put themselves through the horrible critiques that all humans put them selves through, even more so because they have this pressure not to fail and fail in front of people that they don't want to be embarrassed in front of.

So now imagine them critiquing themselves to the point of saying, okay, I'm going to get through this program, I've gotten through this program, I've now passed, they've done everything they thought that they could never do. They've critiqued to the point where what what part of the profession would be the hardest and then how they've been able to handle or shift around that in presenting in front of it in a place where they're going to interview for whatever institution that they're at.

And then having that bias thrown back at them again to say, Oh, we don't think you can do it, or we're not sure if we can, we can put you there or you're an infection risk or you're this that in the dirt. All of these technical standards that we want to implement, you have to be able to lift £50.

But those technical standards are business standards. How much is the business willing to pay for things that are going to make your job easier? That's the first thing. Let's not take on what business standards are to the nursing profession. The nursing profession is built on being able to care for a patient that is not saying that we have to lift the patient, that is not saying that the patient's, you know, ability to get in and from a machine is our issue.

No, that's the business issue. The business needs to make these things accessible and nondiscriminatory. We as nurses need to be able to say, well, if this nurse is coming in and they're interviewing for this job, they've already could treat what they can and cannot do. Let's give them the chance to prove the point.

Cara Lunsford

Give a few examples of how businesses can make accommodations in a few specific settings, but give a few specifics because I think it's important for them to actually understand the changes that they would have to implement and how maybe they're not that difficult to do so, but it makes a huge difference.

Andrea Dalzell

I'm sorry, I'm laughing because you know why that EEOC statement that's at the bottom of every single employers website, we're equal opportunity. How do you plan for that? Who is on the board that says that we're planning for not only women, women of color, we're planning for men, we're planning for all of the things that are going to happen, who are veterans, any skin color, any gender, who plans for that exam wise.

Let's start by actually enforcing the five or four plans and the ADA, because then you're actually preparing for the people that you're going to be treating you walk into. And this is just me using as a hospital setting because I'm in and out of hospitals as a patient. So from the patient viewpoint, this is where I'm going to give you.

If your patients can't get their mobility devices into the bathroom, how do you expect your workers to be able to go in and out comfortably if your unit has rooms that are over piled with things that you need? So I've posed chairs for guys, garbage bins and machinery, and you don't have the room to functionally get around that room by yourself just walking.

Imagine the patient trying to get around that room and how much of a fall risk that now becomes. Why is it that I can't access a bathroom that's physically big enough for my wheelchair? Which means that now my wheelchair is pretty small In standard, someone with a scooter or a motorized wheelchair would not be able to get into what about someone who is deaf or hard of hearing being able to access information readily available?

It's not. So those are examples on a business level like, Hey, just enforce your ADA levels at a higher rate than being stuck in 1990 because that's when that bill was signed and we're in 2023 and we're still not up to standard in most hospitals. So we're in that EOC statement. Did we say as a business that we've planned for this?

Cara Lunsford

I think that that is a great point, that if your facility is up to code in terms of Ada, then TechNet CLI, you are also up to code in terms of having employees who have disabilities as well, right? So I think that's a great call out. I am not entirely sure who's responsible for that. I just think that there is a lack of awareness, a lack of understanding, a lack of preparation, you know, for patients and staff.

So let's start there.

Andrea Dalzell

Right now is while understanding language is different and implementing language so that you can definitely help best not only your future and current employees, but your patient care.

Cara Lunsford

It is treating people with just respect, dignity, equality. These are the basics, right? These are the the this is like the basics of humanity. Yeah, right. If we just remember what it is to be human and honor that.

Andrea Dalzell

Particularly in nursing, because that that is our foundation. Our foundation is that human instinct to care. Mm hmm. Yep.

Cara Lunsford

So I'll ask you probably want one last question. If you were looking at a job description and in the beginning it's saying to you, this is what we stand for. This is our mission, this is our vision, but this is what we actually do as a facility, I guess. Let's talk about how you would have to feel as you were reading that bio.

Andrea Dalzell

If I'm being completely honest, I don't know anymore. I remember, you know, I went through those 76 interviews. I've read all of these job descriptions before. They don't change very much at all. Even from then to now. I think I'm already emotionally and intellectually scarred from anything that kind of would even make me want to jump up and down because of the fact that everything is at face value for me at this point, because I don't see that work in progress.

If I wanted to create this perfect utopia, I'd be taking like bits and pieces of what one school is doing and what one institution is doing. And you know what one person is doing and then what one organization is putting together. And for me, those are like the the Craig Neilson Foundation in the Craig Hospital or University of Michigan with their disability center, and Dr. Ocalan me at the head of that.

And then it's the Shepherd Center in Georgia, or you know, Walter Reed as a as a VA hospital, as a as a college. I don't know any college right now or any nursing program that's willingly saying we accept students with this. Maybe that's what it is. I need a bright neon sign on the front of them that say, we accept all disabilities, not just accept it, but actually have in place all accommodations for for disabilities of all sorts and willing to work with all disabilities of all sorts.

Maybe that's what it is. Maybe that's what I need.

Cara Lunsford

I we have to get away from things like, well, we accepted or we tolerated or we, you know, embracing something and and being open and interested in having those different opinions, different perspectives, different abilities. That is what makes us a better institution for patients and for employees. Right. And I think that that's exactly what you said. You said, I need a neon sign that says we want you.

Andrea Dalzell

Yeah.

Cara Lunsford

Yeah, yeah, you're wanted. And that is different.

Andrea Dalzell

That is definitely more than the face value of an EEOC statement.

Cara Lunsford

We have.

To look.

At countries that do prioritize people and that they look at that first, first, and then everything they do, they put against this mission and this vision to be people first. And when we do that, we will not be having these conversations anymore. Yeah. Which would be a welcome day.

Andrea Dalzell

Yeah, that's the hope, right? That all these nonprofits that are fighting for all of this social justice, equality, equity, all of it, that one of they be nonexistent.

Cara Lunsford

Yeah. And that doesn't mean that you can't be profitable. See, people people have this, like, weird concept. They're like, Oh, but if we focus here on the people, well, you know, we won't be profitable or we won't thrive in terms of economy and no, that's not true. That is absolutely not true. And that there are loads of examples out there about how you could have a very thriving society by focusing in on people first.

And I think that that is really a huge takeaway from today's messaging. Yeah. Thank you so, so much for spending your time with me today. And it has been one of my greatest honors and privileges to be here with you. Oh, well, hello there, Felicia Sadler. How are you?

Felicia Sadler

Fantastic. And how are you doing today?

Cara Lunsford

I'm good, thank you. Oh, my gosh. It's been so fun doing those webinars with you.

Felicia Sadler

Yeah, definitely.

Cara Lunsford

So talk about the perfect fit, which I, I always chuckle a little bit when I say this because I'm always like the huh? It's like now I was like, Is there such a thing as perfect? And really recently I was like, okay, maybe we should make the analogy to like a dating app, You know? It's like, how many times are you swiping right and how many times are you swiping left?

There's probably a lot of laughs. There's probably a lot of just like, you know, now, now, now. And then you're suddenly like, Oh. Hmm, Yes, we're maybe right there to the right. And and so what I want to explore with you is what does that maybe look like for you? You know, as a nurse, you're swiping through these opportunities and and you're like, huh?

I swipe right on that opportunity. Yeah. What does that look like to you?

Felicia Sadler

You know, I think for many individuals, you know, when you're looking for a job, when you're when you're a nurse, you're looking for a job, if you've had experience, you're basing your decision on past experiences and what you know you don't want. And then you know what you do want If you're a new nurse, it's a little more challenging because you haven't experienced really anything other than clinicals.

And really those are limited today. I think that when you look at the open positions, it it needs to align with your passion and your purpose, what you're interested in, as well as looking at all of those critical components around work life balance, scheduling and of course, pay. So those are some of the the top things that come to my mind around that.

And then I would also add to that culture, you know, does this organization is their mission, vision and values aligned with where I want to go with my career? Will they support me in my career? So they look at the support that they're going to be given and provided. Hopefully they know someone that works in their organization. References is always great.

So if you have someone that's experienced that culture, they can share and you can ask questions as well. So I think all of those things kind of are top of mind for me.

Cara Lunsford

Yeah, I agree. A while back when I had Holly Blue, we did a survey of nurses and number one was pay. And I just want to say, like for anyone who's sitting out there going, Oh, you know, they're just money hungry. Well, that's not true. First of all, you just everybody deserves to get compensated for the work that they do and make a livable wage.

And, you know, also the amount of risk that you take as a professional should be reflected in the amount of compensation you get. You know, are you in a situation where you're risking your life? And recently in COVID, that was the case, you were potentially risking your life also with like violence in the workplace. It can be very violent.

You know, you can risk getting injured. And so that compensation needs to be considered. Second, though, when we did this survey was appreciation for management. And I think appreciation in general. But I do think appreciation. What is appreciation look like to like it's not a pizza party?

Felicia Sadler

No. You really need to personalize any recognition and rewards that you provide, acknowledging specific skill, specific things, actions that they take, things that they they do not do, because that's part of their nature, if you will, and part of what they they do in their care environment, recognizing those picking up on those what they would consider smaller things.

But you recognize them as a nurse leader or nurse manager, those are absolutely essential and then rewarding them appropriately. We do have I mean, there are rewards within an awards that are given out in in organizations, desire award and and the like. But then there's the day to day as well. That I think really needs to be recognized not just as an individual, but among their team, their colleagues, and really the organization and how they impact the organization.

What does that impact have on the patient experience? So clinical outcomes, I think the more we connect the dots in that respect, the more meaningful it becomes and the more others will kind of see that and hopefully mimic that as well.

Cara Lunsford

Yes. Yes, absolutely. I also would love to know your opinion on just allowing these nurses to really gain access to maybe some of the really great feedback that patients are giving.

Felicia Sadler

Yes. Yes.

Cara Lunsford

I think it's really important. I think sometimes you take care of somebody for two or three days and then maybe you you discharge them and you never hear or you never hear that this thing that you did or this moment that you took or the time you spent with them, really resonated.

Felicia Sadler

Absolutely. And I think even even beyond just them filling out surveys, but that when the leaders round, you know, leaders should be rounding on the patients periodically. And so when the when the patients or families and caregivers and physicians and colleagues, anyone who compliments that nurse and being very specific in what they said makes a world of difference because, you know, nurses really appreciate that.

I know I always appreciated to get feedback from my managers, even from patients and families directly, but indirectly is even better because that's what they're saying when you're not present. Right. And so there's there's so much value to that. And it really kind of keeps you going. It keeps you you're like, okay, I'm making a difference today. I made a difference in this, this individual's life.

I even had families contact me ten, 20 years beyond the time that I cared for their loved one. And they remembered things I didn't even remember. And actually would call me. You know, I knew they knew me in the community and would call me to let me know. They really appreciated that. That's you know, that means that's just like getting a trophy, you know, for all your hard work.

Cara Lunsford

So absolutely. And we have things like the Daisy Award and and there there are these really great opportunities where patients have the ability to nominate someone or your colleagues have the ability to nominate you. But people could work decades and never get a Daisy award, right? So you really do have to have those day to day things that allow a nurse to know that they're making an impact.

Because if you don't think you're making an impact, you're not going to stay in this right.

Felicia Sadler

It's it can be very challenging because you will easily get burnt out if you feel like that you're not if you don't see your contributions making a difference and there's not any recognition, invisibility to what you do. And I think to with the patients and acuity today, we have so much turnover. You know, patients don't stay as long as what they once did.

So there's not a time there's not a long enough runway, if you will, to build those longer relationships that you would have normally been recognized as very short, quick turnaround. So any quick wins, any quick recognition or acknowledgment will pay off. It will be cumulative in the long run.

Cara Lunsford

So if if you're thinking to yourself, okay, I'm going to write that really great job post and I'm going to talk about how great our organization is so that the nurse that's reading this just wants to swipe, right? Yeah. On our on, on our job post. What would it say about all that stuff? Everything we just talked about.

Tell them how to write it.

Felicia Sadler

Yeah, well, you know, you mentioned authenticity. So certainly being very transparent and being true to your core competency. So organizations have core competencies that they follow and you want to make sure that those are what you're able to really put those forward partnerships and visibility in the community, ensuring that you're able to recognize how you partner with the community, how you impact outcomes, quality awards, different recognitions that the organizations have received, such as for nurse residency type accreditation, as one example, to let them know that these are ways in which we support our staff.

We have a place for you if this is what you're interested in. These are our core competencies and I think it goes even beyond the job posting, ensuring that you're giving that personal touch throughout an engagement, that you're augmenting that engagement process throughout the recruitment, all the way to, you know, to the interview and then beyond, so that you demonstrate that prior pre-selection, but then also that you've got that on the back end where it's it doesn't stop, doesn't stop just because you've signed on the dotted line.

Cara Lunsford

Yeah, it's like suddenly the courting is not over just because you got married. Yeah. Yes. Right. Yeah. Tying this, tying this back to a nice dating app.

Feel is.

Just like, how do I get out of this podcast.

Felicia Sadler

Well, there is there is a relationship there, a little bit different, but there is a connection and should be a relationship. Engagement. And then you should always keep it fresh that, you know, if you if you relate it to kind of, you know, marriage always there should be a honeymoon. You know, that doesn't stop.

You should always continually connect, engage and then grow those that come in your organization. So it should be stagnant just because I feel a particular position ensuring that they see a clear career growth path. Yeah, they see themselves in your organization. They see that they have a place to grow and you're going to help them get from point A to point B and here's how you do it.

Cara Lunsford

I love I love that. And the thing that really stood out to me at the very beginning of that was transparency. Yeah. You know, I think it's so important when you come to the table and you go, Look, we're not perfect. You know, we're not. Yeah, but we are dedicated to getting better too. Moving the needle to striving to thrive, right?

Felicia Sadler

It's a journey. You know, we think about journey to to clinical excellence. You know, you can get to zero in an organization, zero harm, but sustaining that is another whole nother level. It's always a journey. And it's the same thing with workforce excellence. It's a journey we're on a journey to always improve, always get better, and take the feedback from the workforce, inputting that into our strategic, our strategies and ensuring that we're always improving.

So the zero injuries, you know, the workman's comp, the risk side of the house, but in flipping that into really striving for that zero, that's you know, when we think about patient, patient advance patient harm and many organizations will publish that or they'll internally they'll let their employees know, hey we did no needle sticks you know for X number of days is one example.

But yeah, for the patients it would be about the quality awards. So when we're publishing what our health system has done and our service offerings and the success and the awards accreditations and so forth would be great for public consumption.

Cara Lunsford

Week, but there could be, you know, maybe in some way something where the nurses could be really proud to wear something in some way, like if you hit a number or you have a really good year or something like that where you could say, you know, we've exceeded or, you know, this is a safe place like where patients and nurses and health care workers could feel like I work in a really safe environment and I can feel really confident about letting the patients know that this is a safe place for them to receive their care and to heal.

Felicia Sadler

Yeah, completely agree. And they can do that and many do, especially on their websites. But I think we could even relay that to the patients that are coming in the door to understand the same as Star Ratings and the the Leapfrog Awards that, you know, they're in the top 100 health, you know, helps hospitals and health systems in the country by U.S. news.

There's a lot of different places. Joint commission accreditation. What does that mean? Well, that means we you know, we follow blah, blah, blah. So having some descriptors for the layperson would be really good. So they better understand the awards and accolades that health system does hold.

I mean, recognition is absolutely essential and understanding the criteria of what you get for that, you know, what you need to accomplish and the elements of performance for that recognition is is important as we think about communicating that out. But yeah.

Cara Lunsford

Yeah, absolutely. We're striving.

Felicia Sadler

Yes.

Cara Lunsford

I love it. I love it. Well, I think that this has been this has been really great because this is going to go into our we have a little series that we've got here where we're going to interview different people and we're going to ask them, you know, what is your what is your perfect fit look like? How do you how do you swipe right on that job?

I'm and and because we know that it's not it's not a perfect environment. It's far, far from it. Far from perfect. But there's got to be something out there that, you know, is is something that we're willing to engage in and we're willing to try. And even if it's moving sometimes, you know, if you're young and you don't have a family yet and you're you're like, you know what, Maybe I want to move to Alaska because they have this really great opportunity or something like that.

I think being willing to explore those new regions in those new areas and knowing that in the United States the laws are different in different places and sometimes that creates a better environment depending on what you're looking for. So just, you know, being willing to travel if you can. Some people can't. Right.

Felicia Sadler

I think, you know, for for me, I think back to early in my career, I was one of the those nurses that did a lot of different things because I got bored in a particular row. I'm like, okay, I've done this. I'm coming into the same thing day in and day out. I need a challenge. I was always looking for a challenge and I think that for those those types of individuals to seek out opportunities and challenges where they can really grow and thrive.

And it really wasn't until I went back to school and, you know, pursued my my bachelors and my my master's that I really was able to it opened up so many more doors for me to be able to to grow with it at the pace that I needed to grow in. But I loved the initial, you know, the clinical specialty area that I worked in initially was CVC loved it, absolute idea, but I even got bored in that role, you know, over over a period of years, of course, but just needed more.

So I think for a lot it may be traveling. For some they may just need different locations, a different setting.

Cara Lunsford

Yeah, yeah. You have to know yourself. I think that what I hear you saying is, is it kind of does start with getting to know yourself because if you don't know, who am I? What do I like? What fills me up, What makes me feel like I'm living and thriving? You're not going to know how to find that match, right?

If you love going to the beach and you don't really realize that about yourself, maybe you're not going to select that job that's maybe close to the coast or something like that. You're going to be in like the middle, you know, middle of America. You know, it's like that's you're probably not going to be too happy. So I think that that's a really good point to to make sure that you really understand yourself and and understand that you're someone that needs a lot of challenge.

You want to challenge yourself. I think that's a really, really great point because it takes to you can't just be like, oh, look at all these jobs and none of them are a good fit for me. And it's like, Well, you have a responsibility to play here as well. Like you to know what will be a good fit for, you know.

And that comes with age too, sometimes, like just being living a little longer, right?

Felicia Sadler

I mean, initially it was a passion for nursing. And I think that organizations can help to get individuals there a little bit sooner about where their best fit is and what their career path might be, but getting them and helping them to understand themselves, to have that self interest, that introspection and self awareness. And so that's, you know, I think it's important to make those connections and help the individuals make those as well.

Cara Lunsford

Oh, hello, Holly. Carla, you did your hair own huge.

I love it. And so this is what happens is like the messy bun thing.

Holly Kalua

Huh?

Cara Lunsford

The thing that's been outlawed at some of the hospitals where they're like, We're going to write a policy about messy buns.

Holly Kalua

No. Yeah. Hairs out of the way.

Cara Lunsford

That's a real thing. Yeah. They've said, you know, no messy buns. And it's like, what? Come on, we got to look at other things. Not messy buns.

Holly Kalua

Mm hmm.

Cara Lunsford

So today, my friend Holly Kahlua.

Holly Kalua

Yes. I can't believe you asked me on your podcast. It's just so exciting.

Cara Lunsford

Oh, my gosh. I love talking to you. I really enjoy talking to you. First of all, I'm going to say you're one of our ambassadors at Intercom. You're kind of an O.G. ambassador. Been around for a minute.

Holly Kalua

Yeah.

Cara Lunsford

How do you like it so far? How is it for you?

Holly Kalua

I like it cause the leadership and it's. It's a place to be yourself. You don't have policies and procedures. You don't have politics. We're not in an echo chamber. We come together with collaborative, unique thoughts and ideas, and it's just easy to be there.

Cara Lunsford

I love that. What a great that's going to be our tagline. Nurse com It's easy to be here.

Holly Kalua

All right.

Cara Lunsford

I think we should use that. Well, that's a wonderful endorsement of News.com and the ambassador program. And who doesn't love Patty Wheeler? Patty Wheeler is is then in charge of our ambassador program. And she's fantastic. So yesterday I entered because this is a little bit of a collage of people that we're interviewing about the perfect fit and in a I laugh every time I say it because I'm like.

Holly Kalua

No pressure. But you're showing up as.

Cara Lunsford

There's no there's no real perfect fit. Like when it comes to finding that finding a job, right? Like finding that career opportunity. I mean, I guess it's not true. There's like, not a perfect fit, but in health care, it is challenging right now. And yesterday when I was talking to Felicia about this, I made the analogy and I said, if you had to look at looking for a job, kind of like a dating app where more times you're.

Holly Kalua

Swiping, I know you're.

Cara Lunsford

Being left more than you're probably swiping right. What are the things that would stand out to you that would make you want to swipe right on a job, you know, kind of thing?

Holly Kalua

I am the creative, innovative type. So if if they presented a job that said, this is our goal, this is what we want to accomplish, we don't know how we're going to get there. We'd love your ideas and leadership and helping us out. So then it's like, Oh, cool, I can make a difference and be creative. The, you know, the worst for me is policies, procedures, Excel sheets where something has to be exact all the time, forever, every day could do it.

Yeah. I need variety.

Cara Lunsford

Yeah, variety. Do you get bored easily?

Holly Kalua

I am never bored. Okay. But I always have a few plates spinning and I'm keeping it so I don't have time to get bored. You know, I have. I'm an ambassador. I have a job. I'm getting ready to get back into school for my master's in nursing. So no time to be a and I'm a mother of a 14 year old and a wife, so.

Yeah.

Cara Lunsford

Yeah. You definitely don't have any time to be bored.

Holly Kalua

Right? Right.

Cara Lunsford

But but, but like you said, you seek out opportunities where you can explore new things within that environment. What would that be true?

Holly Kalua

Yes. Yeah.

Cara Lunsford

Okay. So if somebody was going to be writing a job description or, you know, they were trying to get you to come and work for that.

Holly Kalua

What would that.

Cara Lunsford

What would that look like? Like, you know, if you're on a dating app, it's like I like long walks on the beach and I like to walk my dog and, you know, whatever it is.

Holly Kalua

Yeah. Actually, the beach you had me at beach.

Cara Lunsford

Okay, So you would like a place that is on the beach, is it, first of all.

Holly Kalua

Geographically? Well, I just I just got back from Dana. Well, watching and we were right in the middle of a dolphin stampede. And I'm like, I love the ocean. I have to be close to the ocean. But reality is, I have a daughter was shared custody in Sonoma County. So I have to balance in my ideal and I almost had my ideal was a job in Hawaii that was remote.

So I was going to fly to Hawaii. Can you imagine? Oh, got to go check in quarterly. And but then they realized I didn't have my bachelors is in I have a bachelor's in health administration and a bachelor's in management, but not nursing. And they didn't realize that until after a year of talking that day that it's a magnet hospital.

So they couldn't couldn't hire me for the job. And so I'm back in school getting my master's, you know, not necessarily to get that job, but to open up my opportunities. I like working with people over process and I taking taking teams. I need to be in a team leadership, not for the power and control. You know, people here, I want to be a leader, but I like to lead.

I do not like managing and it's about inspiring, getting people to understand that vision and, you know, crazy things. So I had a a I guess I don't know if I can go off on a little story.

Cara Lunsford

Sure you can. Of course you can. We are. It's like story time with Cara.

Holly Kalua

Well, okay. You did? Yeah. I should have brought my cocoa then, for sure. So what I did was I was in charge of case management. And we have challenges discharging patients timely, getting doctors to write orders, sniffs to take them. And we had a new VP assigned to us, and he was from Psych, so he didn't have that same understanding of case management.

And I told my team, I said, we have to do something significant. So he knows us and he knows what our challenges are. And I said, I just heard that he loves the movie Matrix. So I want to do a matrix orientation for him. And they're like, Well, you're crazy. I said, Listen, we're going to we're going to dress up like Matrix.

We're going to run like our own little mini case management movie. And he will never forget what our challenges are, who we are, and when budget comes, he won't be telling us. And and they told me later, they're like, You really scared us. We thought you were losing it, but they loved it. We, we, we you know, we're dressed up in Matrix.

I put a phone in an envelope and had it there. So when the VP came in to work, his assistant said, Oh, this package you're supposed to open before your next meeting. He opens it and we said, And I had it and put an analog port in his office. They let me do that. So we plug the phone in and we had somebody call him and say, Follow the White Rabbit.

One of the staff had a white rabbit. He followed her. He's like, this is so exciting. Ed, let's go to that. And we're like, you know, we're all serious Matrix people. We took them up to maintenance. We had maintenance guy behind the fence and he's he's put his blue jelly bean and his red jelly bean and had him choose do you want to know the truth.

And then we had we went to the kitchen and case manager was cooking cookies pretending like she's smoking, you know. So we had these different scenes and his assistant called and said, Your next meeting is ready because you got to reschedule. I'm not leaving this. And so then we took him down. You know, we had covered our office and we talked about the machines on the west gate machines or, you know, and all of our different challenges.

And then we had the red jellybeans on his desk when we went back, and he just said that was the most incredible experience he'd ever had in his health care leadership and he'll never forget it. And so after they're like, That was so incredible. We were so glad to be part of it. We did it for 100 bucks and some of our time.

And so anyway, when I say innovative, creative, I am not saying let's change the color scheme.

Cara Lunsford

It's that Holly you you have just earned yourself the when we do an ambassador retreat, which we're planning to do in 2024, you're for sure are going to be in charge of that Like you're you're, you need to like, you know, maybe not in charge of it, but you have to, like, do some kind of like, awesome, I don't know, escape room or whatever you want to do.

Okay, That is amazing. Like, that's just amazing that you thought to do that. And I think we we need more of that. We we need more of that. So so when you talk about looking for an environment where you're able to be you.

Holly Kalua

Mm hmm.

Cara Lunsford

So if you were to read a job posting and it said we really empower and encourage our staff to be innovative, to be creative, to think outside the box, to come up with solutions, that would be something that would resonate with you.

Holly Kalua

Yes. Yes, there is a Southern California University who has transformative or transformative leadership in disruptive times. And so they ask if I wanted to to go through the program and then be an advisor. And I like leadership, disruptive times, innovative, transformative. I'm there. So I even enjoyed that. So I love I'm an editor more than that's the strange thing.

I'm very creative, but I have I need something to work with. So when he said I love Matrix, I'm like, okay, I have something to work with that I know is meaningful. If if you asked me to design something without something to work with that it's not as easy for me. I can edit PowerPoints versus. So anyway.

Cara Lunsford

I always think that for me personally, I have to feel a sense of purpose. Hmm. Creativity I think is really important. Innovation, being forward thinking and being able to look at things in a very holistic way. Really important to me. If somebody were to just say to me, Oh, you know, just do your job like just stay in your lane, that's probably one of my I hate that phrase.

I that like stay in your lane. It really I understand to some extent why it's important to, you know, not necessarily be all over the place or stepping on other people's toes. I get it and trusting that other people how to do their jobs and and not micromanaging and stuff like that. I think that that's important. But, you know, staying in your lane, I think puts people in a box and it tells them that they have to just be this one thing.

And if you're a nurse, it's like, hey, look, just look at the orders, assess the orders, assess the patient, collaborate with your team, but don't be dabbling over here in these other areas, you know, reimbursement or looking at how we order supplies or what our cost is and stuff like that. I think it's really important that as leaders we embrace that and we encourage it.

We encourage people to ask questions and be curious. Mm hmm. So looking for an environment like that. So if you had to list out like you're let's just say you're like your top five, right? Like that, you know, it looks you're looking at this like it's a dating profile. You're trying to decide if you want to even go on the first right with this organization.

You want to just do you even want an interview? You know what? Be like your top five things that they that they would put in there that would entice you.

Holly Kalua

A flexible schedule.

And that's the thing is I think the perfect job it depends on when in your life you're looking at it because your priorities shift. So, you know, you can't frame that perfect job and just keep it on your wall. And I'm going to get that job because it changes right now. I need to be able to, you know, take my daughter to school.

And so what I have now is I work from home so I can take her to school, pick her up. That's important. But I also get to travel. If you say work from home with intermittent travel, I'm like, That's the best of both worlds. I love travel and I love working from home. And so I just flew out.

I was gone for a week for a client assessment. I met with them. So I have that people part where I get to connect and it's real. And then I work on the project and that and, and being able to contribute, I think what happens is people get so excited about their job because they're told when they're hired, you're exactly what we're looking for.

But then they put them in that box or they don't appreciate the skills that they've hired. So my, my thing, I want something that I can look ahead, be proactive. Too many times I'm told, don't worry about that same thing. Don't worry about that. You think and and we're now six months down the line. And what I was thinking about, we actually need to have in place so it's it's the empowerment word and a lot of advertisement both in dating apps and in job.

It doesn't always align to reality. Some people have better marketing skills and in chasing than than when you get there. So I need transparent transparency. Huge.

Cara Lunsford

That's why we talk about it, right? Because sometimes you don't think about it and you don't have these. I love I love Brené Brown and I say her name all the time because one of these days, one of these days I'm going to interview her for this podcast. I this is on my vision board in my head is Brené Brown.

Yes, on the Neustadt podcast. Okay. But one of the things that I love about her is really about emotional literacy and really being able to identify and this came up in in the last interview that I did with Felicia about how we need to know ourselves. Because if you don't know yourself, then you don't know you can't possibly find the right job for you because you don't know what's important to you, where your what your priorities are, and being able to, like, sit with that and and go.

Transparency came up in the last interview to transparency. You know just be honest to say, you know we're working on it. We're not perfect. We're a work in progress, but we value these things and we are constantly working towards safer staffing, you know, safer work environments. We're constantly working towards prioritizing mental health of our employees, stuff like that.

So I agree with you 100%. Like I can deal with real bugs, but don't make it seem like it's this really wonderful full plate. And then you get there and you're like, Okay, come on, y'all.

Holly Kalua

Well, I think we keep saying transparency because we don't get it most of the time. And so as a consultant, my experience is the the hospitals are like, oh, because I'm very transparent and, you know, and I'll straight up say, okay, I'm very transparent, honest. I'm going to do what you've hired me to do. So I'm not going to tell you maybe what you want to hear or what a classic consultant might package it up.

I'm just going to shoot from. This is what I see. This is what you can do differently. And they're like, you know, the last year's client like it was they were in New York and they're used to fancy consultants and they said, We've never had, you know, our money's worth like we've had this time. So I really encourage my staff.

So you want to have a culture of safety and a culture of safety is I can communicate that. I think you're about to slice off the wrong leg or I'm just curious. I had I mentioned something and I haven't seen a response. So there's a wide range of culture of safety and being heard. And so, you know, I try and encourage staff who are used to when I go in, they're like, Are you here to fire me?

And I'm like, Well, this is our first meeting, should I? And so, you know, whatever is the past is the past. I'm here now. And, you know, we're going to have dynamic conversations on how we can improve the process in whichever I said, if you don't tell me what's bothering you or what's not right in the program or the process, I don't know how to fix it.

And you're going to be frustrated. I want all of your energy into looking forward to coming to work and doing what your skills are. I mean, living to your skill set. And if it's not, then let me know and we'll do something different. And so I've had people move assigned to different hospitals change. I've had people apply for one job, I had two people applying for two different jobs.

And I said, I think your skills match the opposite. Do mind if I trade and put you guys in the opposite? And they're like, Well, you know the job better and they both love their job. So if people are transparent, then the bosses can be transparent and it's a full circle of success. And, and some people it's, it doesn't work and they need to go somewhere else and that's okay.

Cara Lunsford

So tell me tell us really quick, because I don't think I, I, I didn't do a great job of introducing you. So I want to make sure I mean, I did say that you're an ambassador for Nurse Starcom and all of that, but in an obviously, we know that you have a lot of other things because we know you have a 14 year old and you know, which is all really important stuff.

But when you're talking about the job that you do, what is the job that you do?

Holly Kalua

So my current specialty is I'm a revenue cycle. And so when you start talking about I mean, revenue cycle consultant with case management experience, but my primary is clinical documentation, integrity. And so if if a hospital, when you look on the hospital compare and you have these stars hospitals have so many stars, if you only have one star, that means you're the worst hospital to go to in the area.

You want five stars? Well, unless all the other hospitals are one star. So we help you see where you're not capturing your documentation. Mortalities. Physicians got used to. I had one surgeon, so I will only write four lines. That's it. And so there was a lot of information that was missing it. So documentation is capturing what's the true picture of what that state, how sick that patient is.

And it reflects the good care that hospitals have in public profiles and it helps hospitals get the reimbursement they deserve. So so we help both quality and and finances.

Cara Lunsford

That's great. I have to talk to you more about that because I think that there's going to be some really interesting conversations around reimbursement. And I don't know if you did you listen to the podcast, the one with Rebecca Love, where it was about nurse reimbursement.

Holly Kalua

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Cara Lunsford

That fascinating.

Holly Kalua

Yeah. And I it's like, go girl. What has taken us so long to do that.

Cara Lunsford

Right. I know, I know. So yeah, I would love to, I'd love to pick your brain a little bit more about that one. But you know, this, this has just been I always love talking to you. I think you are just a very interesting person. And I love that you've used your nursing degree license to do things that are maybe away from the bedside.

You know, that you've moved into these areas, these other areas. What are all the areas that you worked in prior to this? Just so that I have like a full picture of you back.

Holly Kalua

My I graduated, I nurses couldn't get a job. They were super picky. You had you had to take a math test and a pharmacology test and all that to get in the hospital after you had a sniff experience. And so it's actually my first job in skilled nursing where the director laughed and they said, Hey, can you cover and take her job?

I'm like, I've been out of school for three months and you want me to run this field? And but that's where I learned about reimbursement. If you don't document what you do, you won't be reimbursed appropriately. So they had me overturn all of her losses, so I carried that as I went to med surge ICU dialysis, always knowing there's this reimbursement connection and it's you know, it's important when we use supplies, when we document, we help our hospital stay open and stay successful.

Where the reason why I went away from the bedside is I was a labor and delivery nurse and moved to a patient post-op C-section. So she was just, you know, so I moved. I was on one side by myself, the other two nurses on the other side, and we were supposed to go halfway. So. So nurses leave. When you communicate, you change someone's life if you are not careful.

I, I was okay. Halfway. Halfway? Yeah, halfway. So I got halfway and yanked her the full way. And of course, I had a tight grip and it pulled my shoulders and.

Cara Lunsford

Oh, no.

Holly Kalua

Yeah. And. And labor and delivery is what I wanted to do my entire life. And that's what I would say to nurses, whether you're you're new, you're experienced, or you're trying to decide when you get to retire or you are still in charge of your career, while it feels like you get laid off, you get hurt and and and you're losing control.

You haven't lost control. You you need to just reboot and pivot. So had I stayed in labor and delivery, which was my love, I wouldn't have been able to make the difference that I do now and went into case management. And I found that my the best patient for me is actually a staff member rather than a patient.

And that's where I can make the biggest impact and like you said, make innovative, but it needs to make an impact. And so I'm always like, does this make sense? Can we do this differently? And I my other thing about jobs is you can create your own job. I've created half of my jobs. I went to an interview, so we we had a merger that's quite popular now.

It's the merger I went in as a case management director applicant because they didn't have clinical documentation. So when I was in there, I said, You want to do case management? I said, Can I also tell you what I do now and what I think a corporation needs? And they said, Well, okay, can I use the whiteboard? I got it right in the middle of the interview.

I get up on the whiteboard and I show the org structure and I said, You need a corporate CDI director to lead our 18 hospitals at the time. And they're like, Well, yeah, we don't have that. Okay. So I created that job and in the snip I created my lead, ah, in jobs. So, so even if you aren't in the perfect job, you can look to how you can make it better.

If you're not able to switch, you can improve time. Okay. So many of my jobs case management lead job created and then so I guess I would say be intentional about your career. Don't take another job because you make a dollar 50 more does it? And I think what you said is so important about knowing yourself. So when I was laid off, I did different things.

I got my real estate license, I got this profile. So that's understanding your personality. And if you understand, wow, I'm an asset see in the desk thing. That's why people make me so uncomfortable when they try and get me up front. That's not my that's not who I am. And they make fun of me when I say I want it correct.

Well, that's just who you are. So when you pick jobs. No, that that's that's a field that taps into your talents because you'll expend so much energy when you are working out of your natural skill set and skill set isn't necessarily like you can be good at something, but that isn't natural and it takes more energy. So I think so.

So, so many people, if they just stop and analyze, why do they do what they do and and how does it make them feel? I realized I didn't like taking care of sick patients and I thought, oh, my goodness, I'm in the wrong field. And I just I went, okay, I'm not into wounds. I'm not into this and that.

I'm like, Do I need to get out of nursing now? So I, I finally landed my labor delivery job, but then case management and CDI and. And look at you. You're in charge of nurse dot com. Who would have thought a nurse would be in charge of, you know, an app and. And you're so cool you're done. Yeah.

I mean you're you aren't, you're classic you know I've had a few people, you know, step on my shoulders on the way up the corporate ladder. That's not your way You are collaborative and and you're such an example of what collaborative nursing can do and you still can excel. Being you.

Cara Lunsford

So you can absolutely excel being yourself. And I will say that when you look at me against the thousand other people at Reliance, because we have like a thousand people have a whole cross-section, I will say that the very creative people tend to be the ones with the blue hair or the green hair or something like that. But when I came in and I was in, I took this role as the V.P. and I looked at all the other VP's within the organization, I was like, Oh, my, I'm the tattooed, pierced Mohawk wearing like, you know, And it's not.

Holly Kalua

Really.

Cara Lunsford

It's not blue. I mean, yeah, my hair is not blue, but I was like, I don't look like everybody else. I don't act like everybody else. But my colleagues will tell me all the time that they are so happy that I am not like everybody else and that I am myself and that I have just maintained that because there's no one else you can be other than you.

And that is what makes you it's what makes you unique and it's what brings something to the organization. If you're not yourself, you're depriving them of something potentially great. Mm hmm. So I definitely agree with you that knowing yourself and really tapping into that and then also trying to create the job that you want, build the life you want to live in, create the career you want to have, it's totally doable.

You've it. I've done it. We are the proof that it can be done. And so I really appreciate you being here with me, and I'm excited about this this episode, because I think it's something that weighs on people's minds a lot and they're like, I really want to stay in nursing. I love being a nurse. I want to enjoy the environment that I work in.

And I think that part of what we do on this podcast is we try to empower people and I think you did that. So thank you so much.

Holly Kalua

Thank you so much. Just such a privilege.

Cara Lunsford

My till next time, my friend.

Holly Kalua

All right. Have a great day.

Cara Lunsford

You too.

Holly Kalua

Bye.

Cara Lunsford

If you're a nurse or a nursing student who enjoyed this episode, don't forget to join us on the nurse dot com app where you can find the nurse dot discussion group, a place where we dissect each episode in detail and delve deeper into today's topics. Nurse Dot is a nurse com Original podcast series, production music and sound editing by Dawn Lunsford, Production Coordination by Rhea Wade, Additional editing by John Wells.

Thank you to all the listeners for tuning in to the Nurse Dot podcast. Until next time, keep spreading the love and the care.