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Episode 14: Educating the Next Generation of Nurses

In the latest episode, Cara is joined by Dr. Bette Bogdan, PhD, MSN, PHN, RN-BC, and Kylie Daron, MSN, RN, to explore the impact of education on addressing the nursing shortage. The conversation delves into the ideal number of clinical years a nurse should accumulate before transitioning to a teaching role. Kylie and Bette discuss the considerations involved in deciding to pursue additional education, examining the balance between financial costs and potential rewards The discussion extends to reimbursement programs available to nurses, and collectively, they highlight the empowering effect of advanced nursing degrees in fostering individual growth and catalyzing positive change within the healthcare industry.

Dr. Bette Bogdan, PhD, MSN, PHN, RN-BC, has served as the Department Chair of Nursing at the American College of Nursing for nearly five years. She began her career as a nurse’s aide in 1976 and received her PhD in Nursing Education and Administration in 2018.. With diverse clinical expertise Bette is impassioned about Population/Community/Public Health and Disaster Management, earning recognition from NH Homeland Security with the Stovepipe Award for her emergency preparedness contributions. Transitioning to teaching, initially as a guest lecturer and later as faculty for LPN and ADN programs, she delved into online education, co-creating a CBE RN-BSN pilot program and contributing to ACE's RN-BSN, RN-MSN, BSN-MSN, EdD, and EdS in Nursing Education. Rooted in a student-centric philosophy, Bette finds inspiration in her favorite theorist, Jean Watson.

Kylie Daron, MSN, RN, brings six and a half years of diverse nursing experience to her role as a healthcare professional. With a background spanning Med-Surg, mom/baby, and pediatrics, Kylie has honed her expertise in various clinical settings. For nearly three years, she has been dedicated to shaping the next generation of nurses, serving as an instructor in clinical, lab, and theory at a local nursing college, where her passion for teaching thrives. Beyond her career, Kylie is a devoted wife and mother of two children. Inspired to contribute further to nursing education, she is currently pursuing her doctoral degree through ACE, with a focus on teaching in online nursing programs.

Key Takeaways

  • [01:45] Introduction to today’s guests and topic. 
  • [11:03] The ideal number of clinical years a nurse should accumulate before transitioning to a teaching role.
  • [15:40] The financial considerations involved in pursuing additional education and reimbursement programs available to nurses.
  • [23:00] How additional education can help combat the nursing crisis and provide nurses with the confidence to advocate for change. 
  • [34:31] Closing thoughts and goodbyes. 

Episode Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically. Its accuracy may vary.

Cara Lunsford

Oh, hey, nurses. Welcome to the Nurse podcast, Giving nurses validation resources and hope. One episode at a time. Oh, today on Nurse Dot podcast.

Bette Bogdan

Even if you can only collect so many courses at a time, do it. Because education is something that no one can ever take away from you, and it's really a transformational process.

Kylie Daron

I'm really excited that I can be a part of their journey and everything. I like that I can be part of the solution.

Cara Lunsford

Joining us today are two pillars of the nursing education community, the distinguished Dr. Betty Bogdan and the incredible Kylie Darin. Each of them brings a wealth of knowledge from their time as educators at the prestigious American College of Education. Whether you're considering a BSN, a master's or a doctorate. Betty and Kylie share their expert insights on the transformative impact that advanced education can have on your practice, your patients, and the future of health care.

I'm your host, Kara Lunsford, a registered nurse and VP of community at Nurse Icon.

Oh, I'm just so excited to have you both here.

Kylie Daron

Yes, we're excited to be here.

Cara Lunsford

Okay. Let's get this thing started. We have two incredible nursing professionals here with us today, Dr. Betty Bogdan and Kylie. Darren. Betty, I'd like to start with you. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Bette Bogdan

Okay. Well, I took a rather convoluted route to get where I'm at now. I started off as a nursing assistant high school dropout, went on to be a nursing assistant, got a job, went to an LPN program I was blessed to get into, didn't I? Passed. Right. That's all that matters. And I took my boards, then went into a transition program for an associate degree community college, and passed that as well.

I was very thankful. And that was way back in the eighties and I stayed as an associate degree nurse for a really long time. And I think what's important about nursing is that you can have different paths. So with that degree and at the time I did all sorts of things and worked all sorts of different areas and it was great.

If I got stagnant in one area, I switched to something else. So PACU, emergency department, you name it. Supervision. And I noticed along the way that my colleagues were moving up and doing different roles, and different roles were coming about. And with an associate's degree, it really kind of kept me a little bit. I wasn't qualified right? So there was an opportunity when I was in a C-suite, and one of the people in the meeting said, We have to dummy this down because Bogden doesn't have even a bachelor's degree.

So I just kind of smiled and sat there. And even though I got the information, she was right. I didn't have an advanced degree. I didn't even have a bachelor's, a master's. I didn't have anything. But it was at that moment that I decided I was going to return to school. At the time, I was also teaching as guest lecturing in an LPN program, and I always got a kick out of the fact that here I am with an associate degree lecturing these students on cardiac or you name a system and I'm like, Oh, they really deserve a little bit more.

You know, why do they want me to do this? But as a practitioner, I was actually pretty good. I like to think so. I did. I returned to school, got my bachelor's degree and got bitten by the education bug during that time of wanting more. Right. So I continued on, got my master's degree, and once I got the master's, I'm like, I'm going back.

I want a terminal degree because I want to continue teaching. And the way of the world is a terminal degree for educators, right? So I started off in a DNP program, and after about a year looking around and I'm like, There are no PhD people here, there's no DNP people here, there's no A.D.D. people here. Pardon me. Actually, there were being taught by PhDs.

And so I asked the dean, I was like, Could I ask you, why are there no educators here that have an M.D. or a Ph.D.? She didn't have an answer for it. So at that time, I was talking to a person who was in charge of a Ph.D. program down in Mississippi, and she spent a lot of time with me explaining the different degrees, the terminal degrees, what they were for.

So at that point, I made the switch to a Ph.D. because I couldn't find an IB program for me. So I graduated with the Ph.D. and when I found ACE, I was teaching online with my masters and I found Ace quite by accident. And it turned out to be quite a unicorn in the education world. You look at the data, right?

How are the students doing? What is the organization like? What is the culture like? So in going down this rabbit hole of online and researching Ace, I really found like, Wow, I want to be part of this. This whole movement that they're doing. So I came into Ace when we were creating the Aunt MSN program and there were some students already in there.

The program I think was about nine months. We had students in that program. During the interview they asked me, What are your goals? You know, where do you see yourself? What do you see yourself doing here? And I said, Well, I really kind of like the fact that these are online students, that they're busy working adults, because that's my path.

Right? And some of them, they're just going back for their bachelors and their masters. And I'm like, That's me. And also I wanted to start an E in nursing ed and administration because they need people who have the skills for these positions in community colleges, universities, wherever. It's the second oldest degree is the A.D.D.. So they let us and I've never looked back.

The students that I have met through this college are so outstanding. And Kylie, we have her on today. I just I'm going to stop and let Kiley take it over because that's enough about me. I want to know about Kylie and her journey.

Kylie Daron

Sure, sure.

Cara Lunsford

That was amazing. By the way, just let me give a little a little nod to you, Betty, because I think it's really important for the listeners to understand that this is a journey. And you might start as a CNA, you might start as an 11, you might start as a high school dropout, and that that does not limit you or your ability to get to like where you've achieved.

Betty And then to experience what what Kylie's about to tell us and, and her introduction and her journey. So I just wanted to, you know, take a second to to honor that, to honor that journey. So thank you.

Kylie Daron

Yes, for sure. I teach an LPN program and a lot of them maybe they did either high school in the past or struggled or whatever and overcome all those struggles and like. So yeah, I love that you had that story. That's really that's amazing. Yeah. So for me, I also became a senior first. Growing up ago I was even interested in in the medical field to begin with is because of growing up as a little girl.

We would go to nursing homes and we would like play instruments and sing for them and just do things like that. Because my, my family is very musical and I remember even the little girl, just like watching all the nurses taking care of the residents, and I was like, This is really cool. Like, I really enjoyed it. I loved talking to the residents and I loved just watching the whole atmosphere of the medical field.

So that piqued my interest. And then as a teenager, as as my grandfather started getting, I started having stroke after stroke after stroke near be in the hospital with him. I would see how the nurses again cared for him. And I was like, I really think there's something I want to do. So I became a senior at 16, known no one would hire me until like almost 18 working at CNN and I loved it.

And so I went straight to nursing school and graduated and always knew, even then, even in my associate's degree programs like I would like to eventually get my master's in something. I don't know what I do know. I want to keep going, you know, I'll figure it out. And so got my associates as I was working, I got my bachelors and I was going back and forth between practitioner, educator or a midwife like Lilly.

That was three very different things. But I was like, I don't know. I ruled out nurse practitioner and midwife pretty quickly because when I was a nurse working on the floor primarily, I loved having students shadow me. I loved training new people. I just found it so satisfying and I loved watching like that light bulb moment happened for them and I loved being part of that.

And so I decided I was like, You don't think I'm going to go from a master's in education? And so I did. And I started teaching at a local college just adjunct, just teaching a couple of clinicals here and there. And I loved it because I could be thrown into like every corner was different. You know, whatever unit was I needed to be in was different to be a transplant unit one quarter and then a normal message unit or cardiac unit.

And it was so much fun. And I loved teaching my students to get having them have that light bulb moment. And so from then I just was like, this is definitely something I want to stay in. And so I started looking around at different doctoral programs because I loved my B.S. and online program. I love my master's online program.

I think I would love to teach in one of these like like a B.S. or Amazon program one day maybe. And so I started looking at DNP EDT, and I was looking at all these different options, and I was like, I would know what to pick. I was just like, kind of overwhelmed. And I knew DNP was more focused on practice and I was like, Oh, I don't want to do that.

So I was trying to decide between D and E d d, and I knew that it was focused more and more on education. I found S and I knew it was new and it was affordable and I could get done in about three years or so. And Dr. Bogden actually like called me and talked to me about it when I was applying.

And just tell me more about the accreditation about it. I was like, yes, this is definitely something I want to do. I was really excited. And so I think I'm part of the first cohort of the program. And so that was really exciting. And I've just yeah, I've really enjoyed it. And I'm still teaching right now at a local nursing college.

I teach in an LPN program in the B.S. and program there. So yeah, I'm just excited to keep going. I have about a year left of the program, so I'll graduate hopefully next December as long as I don't get behind in any of my like data collection or anything, I'll I'll graduate next year.

Cara Lunsford

Well, congratulations.

Kylie Daron

Yeah, thank you.

Cara Lunsford

That's a huge deal. And also, just again, really going up through that whole journey from Siena, working your way into becoming a licensed nurse and then deciding and recognizing really that what you where your passions lie. And this is a question for both of you. I think a lot of nurses, they get through certain number of years of nursing and maybe they're two, three, five years into nursing and they're either thinking, okay, I think I need to make a move.

I either need to move to another department, find another specialty. I'm feeling kind of burned out. I need to make a change. And how many years do you recommend having under your belt in terms of clinical experience prior to thinking? Okay, I want to teach other people. Do either of you have an opinion about that?

Kylie Daron

So I can speak to that because I graduated from my associate degree in 2017, I still consider myself like fairly new ish where I work, they require at least two years and I had just that to teach at least four meds. But I had other experience, like with pediatrics and with OB and stuff like that. But you had to have a minimum of two years to teach that specialty, but you're going to teach.

And so I had just two years of medicine, and so that's what I taught and I feel like that was barely enough. Honestly, because I would have my students and I still felt like I had so much to learn. And of course, you're never going to know everything because nurse, you're always going to be learning new things. But I just remember I felt like I knew enough to get by and I learned a lot more as I went, you know, because every unit was something different.

And I learned so much just again in that first year teaching, being exposed to so much that I felt a lot better after just one more year teaching clinicals. So for like two years minimum, because I guess that was barely enough for me. I feel like four years might have been better. Honestly, but two years minimum.

Bette Bogdan

And I'd echo what Kylie says because there are certain boards in nursing boards that have recommendations or requirements in order to be credentialed as faculty. Also, there are requirements in different colleges, university schools, so you'd want to be aware of those. The other thing that I would tell people is that I never gave up the clinical aspect of it as a practitioner, I'm still current today.

My role has changed from acute care to more population focus, so it's more like community global health, population health. And I still teach those courses as well. So I can't really effectively teach it unless I'm actually in it. So for me, it just it's worked out well to always keep the clinical part and then transitioning into the full time educator part.

And I think as nurses we do that anyway. A lot of us have a couple of jobs at the same time. So that is one way that I found it to be very helpful and successful in transitioning to full time education.

Cara Lunsford

I'm glad you mention that because of the friends colleagues that I have who are educators, it is really important for them to stay current and to feel like they spend at least even a few days a month or something like that in the clinical setting or whatever area they're teaching. They want to make sure that they're staying pretty current in that area.

So I'm glad that you brought that up because things are always changing, Things are always evolving. It's hard to keep your finger on the pulse because policies and, you know, safe practice and all of it just keeps evolving. And it's important that as educators, we stay attuned to that. So I guess my next question would be what I think is the reason why I'm asking you all of these questions is because when I'm listening to a podcast and when I imagine that the that the listeners are listening to this podcast, I always imagine that there's a variety of people.

There's the people who have already decided to advance their degree. They're in the middle of school. They're thinking, okay, well, I'm actually in my BSN program. Do I want to continue on to my master's? Do I want to continue on to a terminal degree as as Betty mentioned earlier, or I'm just thinking that I want to go back and get my BSN and that there's those people as well.

And some of it I know that people say like, Oh my gosh, you know, I the amount of money that I'm going to pay for it if I'm going if I'm going for my rent to my BSN, is it going to work out for me in terms of just the return on investment? So tell me about like your decision making in that when you're taking on, you know, you're taking on an extra amount of debt possibly.

How did you rationalize that? How did you work through that?

Bette Bogdan

Oh, kind of. I'll start. Kylie If you think about it, when you're working for an organization, they have tuition reimbursement. By not taking advantage of that tuition reimbursement, you're leaving money on the table. So that's part of your salary. Think of it that way. The other thing is, even if you can only collect so many courses at a time, do it because education is something that no one can ever take away from you.

And it's a transformational and really a transformational process from the BSN getting that BSN a sense of accomplishment. Right. And seeing that GPA for a high school dropout to see a GPA of a 3.98 and that a hello 4.0, at first I thought this is impossible, but thanks to the fact that I had these increase, not all the faculty were incredible mentors, right?

But the vast majority of faculty that I had, I had some reach out to me and it's like, look, I need to teach you how to study because you don't get it right. And I'm like, Thank you, I'm all yours. Tell me how to do this now. Taking those degrees and taking advantage of the tuition reimbursement, it opens doors.

So there may be doors. There are doors and there will be more. I should qualify that statement that are opening all the time that required nursing judgment and the experiences that have led us up to this point. When I was teaching and I've taught Elena's, I've taught LPN, Aiden's BSN, ed, it is when I talk to some of these students, right at all levels, and they say to me, I can't do this.

I don't think I'm going to be good in this profession. And I'm. What did you do for work before? A lot of them might have been waitresses and I'm like, Those skills translate. So wherever you have, then those skills that you're learning are going to translate. And let's say there are so many nurses right now that have walked from the profession.

They are still licensed, but they're walked and they are doing they're working for a florist, they're selling cars, they're doing DoorDash to make some money to make ends meet. But the skills they learned as a nurse will translate into maybe case management might be for them population health. There's so many different areas that you can avail yourself of, but don't leave the money on the table.

Take that tuition reimbursement run with it.

Cara Lunsford

Don't leave that money on the table. That that's the mic drop of the hour is like, don't leave that money on the table. And I totally agree with you, Betty, that there are these incredible opportunities to just take those courses. You know, one, two of them, you know, it's like the years are going to go by and whether at the end of three years or four years, you have an additional degree that does open up additional doors for you and in the process, you learn more about the opportunities that are available to you as a nurse.

And you start to realize, I didn't realize that there was this area of nursing or that I could do this with my BSN, or that I could do that with my BSN, you know, just doing those courses one at a time, two at a time. You know, I know it's hard because I think a lot of people sit there and think like, I'm so tired, I'm so tired, I'm working at the bedside and exhausted.

I go home, I have family, I have all these other responsibilities and I just don't know how I'm going to take on just one more thing. Well, it's like, how do you eat an elephant? You eat it one bite at a time. And so that's just taking that first step and saying, do I have tuition reimbursement available to me?

Yes, I do. Could I look at a certain course? Could I just say, you know, I think I could take one class, just one and take one and you start there and then maybe you'll end up getting bit by the education.

Kylie Daron

As any other. I guess I'm just going to stay in school forever. Like.

Cara Lunsford

I just keep going. Just keep going.

Bette Bogdan

Is grant money available? Scholarships available? And there are a lot different than what were available when I you know, way back in the late seventies and early eighties. Not everyone requires these huge essays. There may be a grant available, for example, the Indiana Center for Nursing, which we belong as belongs. And I sit also on their board as a member.

Those guys are great. They recognize the fact that school is expensive. So there is a scholarship program that eligible students who are within that state. So I'm constantly looking for grants and scholarship opportunities that are available to students. And it's not that hard. You just type in into Google and up it pops. So anyone can do that. Looking for assistance as far as the cost goes.

Cara Lunsford

And if I remember correctly, when I was reading out and creating the ad for Ace, I noticed that the E.D., that's $24,000 something to that effect. I think it was. Was it 24,000, am I right? 26.

Bette Bogdan


Cara Lunsford

I mean, really a very reasonable amount of money in terms of getting such an advanced degree.

Bette Bogdan

And when you look at that, yeah, I'm paying my student loans off. The Ph.D. was very, very expensive. And had there been an aide and nursing ed administration, I would have gone that route. But my student loans right now, as they sit there is still $79,000 sitting there that I'm paying back. So I know I can get a loan.


Kylie Daron

You know, you know, good for you.

Bette Bogdan

You know what it's worth? It was worth it.

Cara Lunsford

It is worth it. And if we think about how much we incur in debt for things that are are not going to really bring us the kind of value that that that kind of education will bring. The next area that I really wanted to jump into and I think that you actually segway to nicely. How is getting your E.D. part of the solution to what we see as kind of this mounting nursing crisis, this staffing crisis?

I always love to connect the dots. I like to go back and kind of work backwards and deconstruct a problem. And right now we know that there are not enough nurses to provide safe care in the United States. This is probably a global problem, but we'll talk about the U.S. for the sake of this podcast that there's not really enough nurses to provide safe care.

And there's a variety of reasons around that. It's not just that there's not enough nurses, there's also nurses that are not willing to work in current conditions and things like that. And that's not for the sake of this podcast. But there is another problem. And part of that problem is that there's just not enough students that are able to graduate and there's not enough educators to educate those students, to get them graduated, to get them into the profession.

Part of why I think we can be part of the solution that nurses can be part of that solution. And part of that is going back and getting this. E.D., what do you both think about this, like as as a solution to helping with the nursing crisis?

Bette Bogdan

I guess I can start, Kiley, but I want to your thoughts to one of the things that was told to me when I graduated with my terminal degree was, you know, I kind of felt like an imposter. And remember the woman who actually helped me get into the program, she looked at me and she said, you're going to know when you're going to introduce yourself as doctor.

I'm like, okay, when's that going to hit? Well, we have all these problems in health care right now. We as nurses, we're all very smart people. We have those critical thinking skills, logical thinking skills. We know where those problems lie in health care. In order to get a seat at the table, you have to have street cred. So that street cred becomes we get that street cred by having those degrees of B.S. And you're an expert at me and I'm an expert in nursing and I'm an expert in nursing.

I can help you, right? You can reach out to your senators, your congresspeople, and you can say, I'm a nurse. I also have an e d in nursing ed an administration. If you have questions, please, I'm your go to person. So it really gives you that ability to get the seat at the table. We can not stop until we have seats at the table because if we're going to effect change, who better to effect change than the nurses who are actually working in the profession?

Kylie Daron

Yes. And I so I teach in the BSN program, teach health care, policy and finance. We talk a lot all the time. I'm like, You guys are going to see things you're not happy about and how are you going to change it if you don't say anything, if you don't get involved, if you don't call any senators or anything and say your opinion and you know and your experience that you've had, nothing's going to change.

And so I encourage a lot of my students who seem more passionate about it than others. I was like, You should go for your master's or you should go for you to just keep going. And I had a student even have a senator ask her because they had a project where they had to advocate for a bill where that senator actually asked her to come and speak to everybody about this issue that she was passionate about.

And so she got like that little bug, you know, I was like, yeah, girls like, go, go for it. Like, you keep going, get your master's and get involved in this stuff. And like, getting your ID and getting your master's definitely gives you more of a say. But then, yes, as you mentioned, it helps with that shortage because where I work right now, there's not enough clinical instructors that the council, that clinical and those students don't get that experience.

So they have to do something online and they miss out in direct patient care or they might have to like completely just cancel that clinical rotation and like have less students in their cohort, you know, coming up and it just makes less nurses. You can graduate. I like that. I can be part of the solution. I'm really excited that I can be a part of their journey and everything.

So I love that I'm going for my doctorate so I can do that.

Bette Bogdan

Isn't that the best, though? Well, I love it when students I have a lot of students that will contact me in the beginning before like highly you know, they're still making decisions on on where to go to school. But then we stay in touch throughout the.

Kylie Daron


Bette Bogdan

And after graduation, and then they reach back out and it's like, you are the best. You know, you're out there, you're making change. And then they will tell me, Oh, my gosh, I had this cohort of students and you wouldn't believe the light bulb went on. And it was like so rewarding so that you're giving as educators and then they're giving and it's like your legacy as an educator is never going to go away because it's just going to keep being passed down to more and more graduates or more and more students.

And ultimately the patients win.

Cara Lunsford

I love when the title of the episode comes out in the actual episode itself, where be part of the solution. And currently what I feel nurses are constantly talking about is how kind of disempowered they feel. They feel like life is happening to them, their profession is happening to them. They are at the bedside and they don't have control over the lack of staffing.

They don't have control over the quality of care that's provided, or at least that's how they feel because there's just not enough time, there's not enough resources. And the only way that we change that is to work both of you are saying is that you bring that seat to the table, you demand your space. And the way you do that is to feel like you are entitled to that space.

And I think a lot of that is is to what both of you are saying is that when you have the letters behind your name, when you can say, I have my A.D.D., I have my PhD, I have my master's, it commands a certain level of respect from whoever is listening to you because imposter syndrome is real. You know, people feel like they feel like, well, why are they going to listen to me?

I think that if you've only maybe got like five years of nursing experience under your belt, but you have your master's degree, that is a really nice combination of I've been in the field for five years and I've made sure that I went back to school, I got my master's, and so therefore I'm sitting in front of you today to tell you about the problems that I'm experiencing and how I think that we should be solving those problems.

And so I do think it's about empowerment and getting those people to feel like they can bring that seat to the table. I love Lesley Mancuso. I don't know if you're familiar with her, but she's the president of JPI Go and it's a Johns Hopkins nonprofit and she says, I'm a nurse first, but she has her Ph.D. and she she says, Look, it's your responsibility to pick up that seat, to bring the chair.

Like, if they're not going to give you a seat at the table, you go and you get a chair and you bring that chair to the table. But part of that is feeling like you deserve to be there. And I think education is a big part of that.

Kylie Daron

So something I thought of is that going through like nursing school, you have to be resilient. You have to be resilient to be a nurse because it's hard, I think no matter how perfect nursing, you know, is, if you have the perfect ratio, still going to be hard, you know what I mean? Like to take care of patients that can be challenging.

You have to build that resilience in getting your bachelor's master's doctorate. Like I have become more and more resilient. So that's another benefit because now if I faced a challenge like whenever I was teaching a clinical and I would face a challenge, I'm like, What do I do what I do? I'm like, You know what? I've got my master's degree.

I'm looking at doctoral programs like I'm a mom. If I can do all that, I can figure out this problem. And it's like it gave me confidence. It helped me build that resilience. And even now, getting my doctorate, I faced many challenges that made me like, Oh, do I want to keep going? And I'm like, Yes, I'm going keep going.

It's like, I'm going to finish this because I've built up that resilience. And so I feel like nurses that I know who really struggle, I always encourage them. It's like, I think it would help if you do go back and get your bachelor's and accomplish that, because that will give you more confidence and more resilience. And of course, it gives you more of a seat at the table.

And those all of those things just kind of compound and just help so much.

Bette Bogdan

I love what you just said. It is so true. It is that whole transformational process through education. It's like the little engine that could with each step of the way, it's like I got this. And I think one of the biggest motivators for me in my journey was being told, You can't do this, sit back, watch me. Right.

And that whole process, the additional course is like some people will say, Why do I have to take these gen ads to get my bachelor's degree? Well, part of that is understanding. So you can look through the lens of another person, right? You've got a wider view of the whole world. It's a beautiful thing. So then you can see how things operate and you can be part of the solution by having or bringing your own seat to the table and really affect change.

It's really, really cool. And Kyra, you asked a question about, you know, what's needed in completing BDD program and part of what you're taught and I don't care what doctoral program or what program it is, is that having the resilience, as Kylie said, to be able to okay, I'm going to take a step back, take a deep breath.

Now, how do I proceed? How do I navigate? Can't go left, can't go right. I got to go straight ahead. And then part of that process when in the E.D. program is patients and learning that patient's learning the process and being able to go back and say, I'm not going to change the world with this dissertation here, but I'm going to effect some change.

So it is it's a growth. It's a transformation. It's just beautiful.

Cara Lunsford

I think that's kind of goes back to what Kylie was saying, is that, you know, when you are brave and you take on these unknowns and you do you overcome obstacles, you only grow and get stronger as a person when you put yourself in uncomfortable situations. I would say that very little growth happens when it's 72 degrees and sunny.

Kylie Daron


Cara Lunsford

It's the time where you get to relax a little bit. You get to maybe be grateful and sit back and enjoy your life a little. And that's good. Those are those are good moments to have. But you don't experience gratitude. You don't experience and really appreciate those moments. If you haven't had times of struggle, times where you've had to overcome obstacles, at times where you are experiencing discomfort, sometimes I think about it as labor.

So what happens when you're being birthed right there is these times where the uterus is contracting down on you. It's helping to move you forward. It's helping to move you through that birth canal. And then there's times when the uterus releases and it's not contracting and the blood flow is coming back. And the you know, and it's this kind of tourniquet to effect life is like that.

And we have to look for times and experiences and ways to push ourselves through this different birth canal, right to birth ourselves into a different part of our lives. This is me being super esoteric, but that's kind of how I am. But I've experienced that myself. I've put myself into a variety of very uncomfortable situations, but it's what's gotten me to where I am today.

It's what got me into selling my company and being acquired by Nurse dot com and then becoming the VP of Community and working in a in a marketing department. I never if you would have asked me 17 years ago when I became a nurse, if I was going to do any of those things, if I was going to be the VP of community in a marketing department for a huge organization like Religious, there's no way I could have possibly have known that.

But the only way I did that was through putting myself through uncomfortable situations. And so I think that that is what we are encouraging you all to do here today in this in this episode is we're really trying to encourage you to be brave and take on that and say, you know what, I'm not going to put this off any longer.

I've been putting it off for years. I've said I'm not going to do it, or I've said I'm going to do it and say, you know what, This year in 2024, this is my year.

Kylie Daron

And just go for I feel like just starting this, making that first step, just looking to supplying can get things really moving. Like that was me with my doctorate. I was just like, I'm just going to look here. I'm it's going to apply. And that really because of that area that I am almost done and I'm so happy I just went for it and did it.

Like I'm like, What's the worst that can happen? You know? And even though you might face challenges doing it, like I just had a daughter almost a month ago and, you know, that pregnancy was rough. We had some obstacles, even after she was born. I'm like, I'm just going to keep I have to keep going, though, because if I don't, I'm going to look back and regret that I didn't keep going.

Even if you have to slow down or whatever you got to do, you're not going to regret getting your bachelor's degree or furthering education. You'll be happy that you just got it done. Yep, because I know that's how I feel. I'm very glad that I kept going.

Cara Lunsford

Are either of you familiar with the book Take the Leap? No, I think it's a New York Times bestseller, but it's the author is Sarah Bliss, and we're actually going to have her on probably in the fourth season. We're going to have Sarah come on and talk about Take the Leap. And that really is about specifically in in that book they're kind of talking about she's talking about taking a leap from one profession into another.

But really it's about bravery. It's really about being willing to explore the unknown, do something different, change your life. I really love the messages in that book. So if anyone's, they should definitely take a look at it and read it because I think it's got some really good points in there and and can be very empowering around moving out of one comfort area and moving into an area that there's a lot of unknowns and especially when there's a financial investment in it or they feel like there's a financial investment, they're like, Oh my gosh, I don't know what this is going to entail.

I'm going to have to put money behind it. And it's not like I can just do it for free and go, Oh, I don't like this. But I'll also say when you're part committed and I'm a poker player, so I like to use poker analogies when you're not committed, meaning you've got money invested, you've got money, they're in the pot, you're more likely to see it through because you're invested in some.

If somebody just gives it to you, if somebody just came along and said, I'm going to pay for you to go to school for the next three years, and at the end of it, you're going to have your master's degree or something like that. You're probably not going to take it as seriously as when you invest in yourself.

Kylie Daron

Yeah, very, very true. And for me, I feel like I do have some tuition reimbursement, but the rest I'm paying for And I'm like, I definitely can't quit because like, I really spend this much and I have this much left and I'm like, I can't quit when I'm so close to being done. And so, yeah, I feel like if you personally invest into your education, it is a huge motivator.

You don't want to waste that time and that money that you've already put in.

Cara Lunsford

Totally agree. Do either of you have any final words of motivation or encouragement? Anything that you feel you'd like to just leave the listeners with in terms of like taking that next step? Hmm.

Bette Bogdan

Great question there, Kara. I would say that the listeners should really understand that the power is in their hands, right, to affect change. And as you mentioned, take the leap. I'm going to be reading that book, by the way. What's the worst that can happen? Kylie said that and it's very, very true. The worst that can happen is you're going to have to get up and walk out or this isn't for me, but I think that you'll find that it is for you and you've got a lot to offer the profession to the other people in the profession.

We need your voice.

Kylie Daron

Yeah, and I'd say I saw this quote. I might even say it wrong. I don't. I don't know who it's by, but if something doesn't scare you, it's probably. Or if it does scare you, that's good. Like you need to try it. Like you can't grow. It scares you a little bit. And that's kind of how I'm looking at things.

Like if I see a little door opening and like that, that's a little scary to jump through that door and go for that opportunity. I'm like, But that's good that it scares me. I don't think it's this point or I'm just going for it. And my husband's a good about like being that voice. It's like, okay, well, let's step back and think about this for a minute.

You're being a little spontaneous in applying for this degree or or looking at this job or whatever. And I'm like, But why not? Why not go for it again? Like I said, what's the worst that could happen if? I get told no if I applied and get accepted inside, this isn't for me. Fine. But what's the harm in applying and just looking into it?

So just at least try to make that first step.

Cara Lunsford

I think that was just a beautifully crafted episode. The two of you brought so much to this and and I think that everyone who listens to it will feel that sense of inspiration and that they will realize that, you know, this is this can be for me and I can be a Kylie, I can be a Betty. This can be my life.

Five years from now, this can be my life three years from now, depending on what channel they're choosing. I just wanted to say how grateful I am to have you both here. The more I've learned about American College of Education, I really, when I go back to school, that's probably where I'll go. I've just really enjoyed talking to everyone over at American College of Education and Ace, also known as Ace, And I appreciate the work that you're doing to really usher in this next generation of educators and advanced practice nurses, because it's it really is a service to the public.

So thank you for that.

Bette Bogdan

Thank you for having us.

Kylie Daron

Yes. Thank you so much. It's been great time.

Cara Lunsford

Thank you so much. Thank you both.

Kylie Daron


Cara Lunsford

If you're a nurse or a nursing student who enjoyed this episode, don't forget to join us on the nurse dot com app where you can find the nurse dot discussion group, a place where we dissect each episode in detail and delve deeper into today's topics. Nurse Dot is a nurse dot com original podcast series, production music and sound editing by Dawn Lunsford, Production Coordination by Ryan Wade, Additional editing by John Wells.

Thank you to all the listeners for tuning in to the Nurse Dot podcast. Until next time, keep spreading the love and the care.