In this week's episode, Cara is joined by Andrea Dalzell MSN-ed, RN, who shares her unique perspective as a nurse and frequent patient in the healthcare system. Andrea discusses her recent healthcare experience, highlighting the lack of coordination of care and its impact on her recovery. The conversation covers the importance of having a care network, the role of insurance, and the need for healthcare workers to have more time and mental capacity to address patients' emotional distress. They also explore how social media influences perceptions of the healthcare profession, the significance of compassionate care, and ways to address lingering distrust between healthcare providers and patients.
Guest Overview
Andrea Dalzell is a prominent advocate for disability rights, known for her remarkable achievements despite facing mobility challenges since childhood. Currently serving as the Chief of Operations for Axis Initiatives in Harlem, NYC, she is also the founder of "The Seated Position," a non-profit organization dedicated to assisting students with disabilities in pursuing higher education in STEM fields. As "The Seated Nurse," Andrea is New York State's first and only registered nurse who uses a wheelchair, defying societal norms and advocating for inclusivity. Her tireless advocacy efforts have earned her national recognition, including being named "New Mobility's Person of the Year" in 2021, and she has been featured in publications like United Spinal Association, O Magazine, Forbes, and an Apple Watch commercial.
Episode Overview
In this NurseDot Podcast episode, we delve into the heart of nursing, exploring the profound impact of empathy and connection in healthcare. Join Cara Lunsford and Andrea Dalzell, known as the Seated Nurse, as they share personal stories and insights on the challenges and triumphs of fostering genuine human connections in a fast-paced medical environment. They discuss how empathy not only enhances patient care but also strengthens the resilience and compassion of healthcare providers. Tune in to learn how bridging the gap between caregivers and patients can transform the healthcare experience for everyone involved.
Episode Transcript
Cara Lunsford (01:49.063)
Okay, I see. I see you. I hear you.
Andrea (01:52.91)
Yeah, okay. Are we checking the boxes? Okay.
Cara Lunsford (01:57.831)
We're checking the boxes. We're checking the boxes. I think we're doing it. I don't know if my wife's going to be like, why were you snapping in the microphone? I'll be like, she's...
Andrea (02:07.302)
Because we wanted to make sure that we were on tempo and not like voice ahead of video or video ahead of voice just
Cara Lunsford (02:12.487)
We're like.
Cara Lunsford (02:16.583)
Exactly, exactly. So how are you my dear friend?
Andrea (02:28.814)
Man, I wish I could tell you that I was A -okay, but...
Cara Lunsford (02:35.111)
You don't have to be a okay. You have to just be like whatever the hell is going on. You like you get to be whatever that is.
Andrea (02:43.886)
I don't want to be whatever this is because if everyone is talking about the breakdown of healthcare at the level that they're talking about it at, the way that I have navigated that since October has been the complete depths of hell. And this is for someone who actually understands the system, knows how to work the system and has been a patient in the system and now a nurse.
to know the behind the scenes and what you may have to do. So I can only imagine what is going on for just patients who are just getting sick, who are just seeking help, who are just asking for answers and getting this run around. Because even for me, knowing how to advocate, I am like threading water. And it's wild to think that this is okay, that this is the norm. And it's only getting worse.
Cara Lunsford (03:42.407)
Right? Right? Whew. I know we've caught up a couple of times over the last few months and...
Andrea (03:43.822)
It's only getting worse. So yeah. Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (03:56.011)
You have been I mean like you just said I mean you've been in it in it I mean Damn near didn't survive it
Andrea (04:02.126)
in it.
Andrea (04:08.59)
Multiple times. Yeah. Like even as recent as March. March was my last big surgery. I'm thinking, okay, my team has got it. We've spoken about it. We've planned. And day of surgery, an hour into PACU. And I'm telling them my pain is not being regulated yet. Like I am still in this. And you can see it in my vital signs.
Cara Lunsford (04:10.575)
multiple times.
Andrea (04:37.806)
for those listening or if this isn't being recorded yet, it doesn't matter. I am still like, I have paralysis, I use a wheelchair. So the first thought out of this practitioner's mind was to say to me, you shouldn't feel any pain because you're paralyzed. And I, in my mind in that moment, couldn't even fathom the words that had just came out of this person's mouth. Like thankfully my sister was sitting right there with me.
And it just became about like the nursing brain has to go on. And I was like, could you pull every one of the last surgical notes that I've had, like post -op surgical notes that I've had in the last five years and please read the record, like, because you are going to physically kill me if you do not, like, can you get pain management because the head of pain management knows who I am. Like it started having to go through the checklist. But again, I always think about the person who doesn't have that checklist in their head that it is expecting that.
If I'm telling my provider I'm in pain that there's going to be something done to help me and then possibly being told that because they have X, Y, and Z diagnosis that they shouldn't feel it. What? Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (05:41.683)
my gosh.
Cara Lunsford (05:51.783)
That's insane. That's insane. And you know what?
Andrea (05:54.35)
and then I was drug seeking. And then I was drug seeking. After all of that is I'm begging for a PCA and then I need to go home and because I couldn't keep food down and still on the PCA, they were like, well, it's because of the PCA. And I'm like, my vitals haven't corrected yet. So it's not because of the PCA. And they're like, well, then you're drug seeking. And I'm like, I don't even like.
I literally don't take narcotics on a daily basis because I'm a nurse, because I don't want this issue and this is what you're telling me I am.
Cara Lunsford (06:29.479)
Do you think, my gosh, I'm just like, I'm just thrown and it takes a lot to throw me. It really does. I mean, if you think about the number of like interviews I do and the people I talk to and the stories I hear and it, it just kind of never ceases to amaze me that this is, this is happening.
And then I'm gonna back up a second because here we go. All right, so Andrea, you've been on our podcast before. And so at first I was kind of like, she doesn't need any intro. Everybody knows who she is.
Andrea (07:03.214)
Yeah.
Andrea (07:09.678)
Yes.
Cara Lunsford (07:22.695)
She's the seated nurse on Instagram. She's like, she's like the most amazing person and but here the thing here. Let's just start really quickly with for those of you who are listening who don't know.
us very quickly who you are because then we're gonna jump right back in and we're gonna like get to the bottom of this shit. We're gonna get to the bottom of this and so so go ahead and and and tell people tell people who you are so that we can jump right back into that.
Andrea (07:49.932)
Yeah
Yeah.
Andrea (07:58.914)
Yeah, so my name is Andrea Dalzell, affectionately known as the seated nurse, and I happen to be the first nurse to go through nursing school with the use of a wheelchair in New York state, which is how I became affectionately known as the seated nurse. And then I went through 76 interviews trying to land clinical placement and went through all of the bias and the obstacles and finally landed an ICU position during COVID in the peak of the pandemic in New York City.
got through all of that, right? All of it, like, you know, always proving the point and showing that those with disabilities can. And now I am the founder and CEO of the student position where I help students transition from high school into STEM programs in higher education.
Cara Lunsford (08:28.869)
Lucky you.
Cara Lunsford (08:47.335)
which is just amazing. I mean, this is why you're so amazing. And then I was like, okay, well we have to ever back on because A, we need to find out what you're doing because you're always doing something amazing. Always. Sometimes it's just trying to survive. Like you're just trying to survive.
Andrea (08:49.742)
Thank you.
Andrea (08:59.15)
Yeah, always.
Andrea (09:07.758)
Hahaha!
Andrea (09:11.636)
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (09:11.655)
You're just trying to survive the industry. I mean, you're just trying to survive, like, you know, being inside of like the healthcare institution. So before I forced you to introduce yourself, we were talking about just the insanity of like what you've been going through and.
Andrea (09:20.078)
yeah.
Cara Lunsford (09:33.893)
I have no doubt that my lovely wife is going to say, that's the teaser, that's the teaser I'm using in the beginning because that was just like so infuriating. I mean, just really infuriating. So you're in the PACU, you're going for your umpteenth surgery.
Andrea (09:53.824)
Yep.
Andrea (09:57.134)
It was my 40th. It was my 40th surgery in my entire life. just for the record, 19th. No, it's four zero. And I am turning 37 in four days. So yeah. Yeah. Well, what am I going to do? Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (10:01.799)
I couldn't even say teeth. It's not even teeth. It's like, there's no teeth.
Cara Lunsford (10:11.975)
You've had more surgeries than you are old.
Cara Lunsford (10:17.573)
Yeah, three more than you are old.
my gosh. Okay, so 40. Like, so you've had a few experiences. You've probably had some good ones. You've had some not so good ones. This last one, did this just like take the cake for you? Was this like, okay, this is the worst of all time?
Andrea (10:24.206)
40.
Andrea (10:41.294)
Okay, so I had a surgery during the pandemic and I thought that was bad. And that was just because no one is around you. You're by yourself. You're going through things alone. Then I had one last October and I said, okay, well, maybe things are just off putting maybe, you know, communication is really just, you know, there's too many checks that we have to figure it out. And that's why things are so slow and things aren't moving. And then this surgery was like, no health.
is in the dumpster. It is lit on fire and it is rolling down one of the San Francisco hills headed for the bay because I don't understand how we have gotten this far gone. And I don't want...
Cara Lunsford (11:32.199)
Well, we're going to figure it out in this episode. We are going to figure it out. We are going to tease it out and we're going to figure out how it got this bad.
Andrea (11:39.886)
Right? Like I just, and to anyone who's listening and tuning in, it's just, this is not projected in any one profession. This is simply the systematic breakdown because of all the checks and balances that are going on and no cohesiveness against any one profession. We're teamwork systematically, but if our systems don't work to make it so that it's teamwork and that there is an actual checkoff.
then yes, our patients are gonna be in the cracks of every single one of those check -offs. And I happen to fall through it. As someone who knows it, who is an advocate, who's a nurse, who has to do those own check -offs by myself, and then having to do that to save yourself, that's a different experience.
Cara Lunsford (12:15.943)
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (12:30.183)
What was one of the first things so like as you say you went through this experience in October?
and you were like, okay, like, clearly there's still some stuff wrong here. You had the experience during COVID and you were like, well, it's COVID, right? So you're like, chalk it up. Like most of us did like chalk it up. You're like, okay, it's COVID, everybody is on fire and they're all doing the best that they can, right? And then it's October, okay, so.
Andrea (12:48.846)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Andrea (13:01.486)
Right. Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (13:05.383)
What happened? What happened in October? You're like, okay, we're in trouble.
Andrea (13:10.158)
So even before that I was sick, I was raising the red flags, my team was aware, we've decided, okay, we're gonna move forward with surgery, let's just make sure that I'm okay. And we move forward with surgery and there's complications through surgery. Okay, fine. I'm admitted into the hospital a little bit longer. However, during this admission, there's no coordination of care for when I'm discharged. They're sending me home, they left me with a surgical wound.
that needed to be healed, they left me with no home care for nursing. They were saying that the doctor who did the procedure hadn't seen me post -op, still didn't see me post -op to discharge. None of his residents that were actually in the OR actually saw me during that timeframe either post -op. But anyone that was low tier on the service would come and see me and then would say, let's take a picture so that the rest of the team can see.
And so I realized that there's just transition now where a picture is supposed to tell the story versus the attending fourth year, fifth year resident, most senior residents, not only in the OR with a patient or there's one resident that's particularly attached to the case to follow it from beginning to end, that's not happening. So then the communication breakdown now happens between those who are doing discharge and the nurses on the floor.
And the nurses on the floor are also really young and you know, they're still learning. And a lot of them are coming from COVID where everything was online. So they didn't have that one -on -one attention. Even their nurse educator on the floor was not even more senior than myself in years. So when I'm seeing meds being hung and I'm like, that should have Y -tubing. They're like, they check compatibility. And I'm like, well, you should check it again.
And they're like, no, we did. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to ask you to triple check it because I know that they're not compatible just from the patient side of when I used to get meds, not even on the nursing side of me knowing this. Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (15:22.663)
Were they wying it into your PCA?
Cara Lunsford (15:28.263)
So they weren't checking like if you were getting Dilaudid or morphine, I don't know what you were getting, but Dilaudid. So they weren't checking to see if like the antibiotic you were getting was compatible with the Dilaudid.
Andrea (15:31.438)
audit.
Biotic would be compatible.
in the same line, correct? Yep. And you know, no, like, well, I did, but one wasn't working anymore. And then they were still waiting for, then they wired it. And then, cause you know, they're trying to not have to task as much, right? And you know, these are where mistakes happen. But at the same time, this is also where that, that a lot of the nurses are like saying, if you're not,
Cara Lunsford (15:45.735)
And you didn't have two lines. Why didn't you have two lines?
Cara Lunsford (15:53.031)
So then they wide it.
Cara Lunsford (16:08.327)
So let's stop for a second. I'm gonna stop you for a second, okay? Because we're gonna just assume that there's gonna be a lot of like young nurses that are listening to this podcast, okay? So we're gonna just talk about for a second compatibility, okay? Compatibility, what happens when two drugs interact that are not compatible?
Andrea (16:10.702)
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (16:33.255)
It causes precipitation, right? And those precipitates, if you see, like if you've ever seen something that's not compatible, you'll see sometimes the line goes cloudy, for example. You might see the line go cloudy. You'll see this a lot, like with like TPN and stuff like that, like you try to Y something in and you see the line go cloudy. It's not.
Andrea (16:53.294)
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (16:59.879)
Good to have precipitates in your line.
Okay. It's not good for it to be in your bloodstream. It causes issues and problems. And so the thing is, is that like, this is really important that you take the time to check compatibility and there's all kinds of charts and there should be things in the med room that where there's a graph and a chart that says, is this go with this? No, you know, so, so yeah, just.
Andrea (17:30.254)
Hehehe.
Cara Lunsford (17:33.867)
Really really important that people understand that that that that those do cause problems
Andrea (17:41.23)
Big problems. Especially if someone's allergic or has hypersensitivity to antibiotics to begin with, which I am one of them. So it was just one ball after the other. And I even had to advocate to not have a discharge. And I needed safe discharge care instructions before even leaving. I think we even, I called you.
Cara Lunsford (17:43.879)
Big problems.
Cara Lunsford (17:51.909)
Mm -hmm.
Cara Lunsford (18:09.159)
Yes, yes.
Andrea (18:09.902)
And I was just trying to figure it out because sometimes even as the patient, you don't have your nursing brain on to think through something completely. And I have this network that I can reach out to. Whereas again, I'm here thinking like, what if someone doesn't have this network? Like, how are they getting through all of this?
Cara Lunsford (18:31.911)
So first of all, right, so you're like, you're the patient. You're not supposed to have to be the advocate too, right? Like, so you're not supposed to have to be your own advocate while you're being the patient, you know, but in this situation, you were and...
It's really anxiety producing. So not only like it, and you're not going to heal well. If your cortisol levels are high, your stress levels are high, all kinds of things happen when you are in an elevated level of stress, right? Fight or flight, all of that stuff. You do not heal well, okay?
Andrea (19:17.398)
Mm -hmm.
Cara Lunsford (19:22.855)
So at a bare minimum, there needs to be certain checks and balances and things that are in place, right? So you mentioned something, you're like, okay, well, there's a lot of new nurses, okay? And they don't have a lot of senior nurses that are mentoring them. They don't have the support, all of this stuff, right?
Cara Lunsford (19:46.663)
What are some of the other things that you noticed? So some of it's that, you you were saying like the doctors are relying on pictures. They're sending more junior, junior residents. To me, I'm hearing a lot of inexperienced people at the bedside. Right? Yeah. Additionally, so what would you say? So on top of that,
Andrea (20:07.758)
Yeah. We are.
Cara Lunsford (20:16.743)
What were some other things that you experienced?
Andrea (20:18.99)
Well, now you have the insurance factors. So everyone is trying to follow the guidelines of insurance. If your surgery indicates that you're in -house for two, I mean, inpatient, admitted for two days, trust me, they're trying to get you out by that 24 -hour mark on that second day. And there's no wiggle room on that. It's not, and you really have to advocate for yourself if you really feel that you're.
not safe or your loved one's not safe to go home as yet. And that's just because, one, I didn't even see a social worker. I had not seen the case manager. I had no idea what my coordination of care was gonna look like coming back to the clinic. And I had to keep advocating and saying, I am not an able -bodied person who's going to be able to get up out of bed and walk to the cab and get into a cab and walk out of the cab and come up to your clinic.
I'm going to have to sit, I'm going to have to put pressure on my pelvis bone, put pressure on my spinal cord, this is going to cause an immense amount of pain for so many hours. It was like, I understand you're gonna wanna see me in a week for post -op, but what does that look like for my care and not just like everyone's general rule of thumb? And every time I would push.
Cara Lunsford (21:38.951)
Right, which is why you would probably have to stay longer because they need to see you at the week mark and you're not going to be able to get home unless they're going to be coming and doing a home visit.
Andrea (21:50.894)
And that's where the coordination of care completely broke down. It was something that I was advocating for in the hospital. I was told, yes, it was taken care of. Yes, they know who they spoke to. And by the time I was home and I'm on the phone with my care manager from insurance, nothing was in place. It took them six weeks after that to actually see me post -op.
Yeah. Your face says it all. Yes, like six weeks.
Cara Lunsford (22:23.399)
But that's like, I'm sorry, but that's negligence. That's malpractice, that's negligence. Like that is all kinds of things that just like cannot happen. Like cannot happen. I mean, like, and this is like, you're paying for your healthcare. Like you are a paying consumer. I mean, can you imagine if any other business, for -profit business,
Andrea (22:44.91)
What?
Cara Lunsford (22:51.559)
even a not -for -profit business. But if any other business did their job as poorly as we are doing it in healthcare, they'd be out of business. There's no way they would have any consumers.
Andrea (23:07.048)
yeah.
Andrea (23:11.694)
Well, is there any reason why our health care caps rise every couple quarters? Like not even every year, but every couple quarters is because they have to figure out how to make more money on a bandaid that only costs like 25 cents, but they charge us $1 .25. Right? Like, you know, the moneymaker of health care is surgery. So even if your surgical coordination isn't at its highest point, then...
then there's something wrong. Completely.
So yeah, I mean.
Cara Lunsford (23:50.727)
I feel like I'm like dumbfounded. Like I just and again, I'm gonna double down on this again and say you work in the field. You're also a person who
Andrea (24:05.068)
Mm -hmm.
Cara Lunsford (24:11.815)
is in a wheelchair. So, yeah, and who has lived within this healthcare system for a very, very, very long time.
Andrea (24:14.126)
lived experience. Yeah.
Andrea (24:26.318)
Mm -hmm.
Cara Lunsford (24:28.935)
I really think that...
I really think that nurses and nurse practitioners, nurse practitioners mainly, PAs maybe also, they are going to have to like stand up some sort of...
clinics, access to healthcare, something there needs to be something outside of the hospital has got to be like the you're dying. You go to the hospital only because you're dying. Like, you know, because there has got to be some other options because this is not working. People are going to they're going to end up dying in the hospital. Like, you know, and for something that like they should
shouldn't like that they should never, you know, and and this is what's so alarming to me. So I'm like trying to figure out like what in all the times that you've been hanging out in the hospital. Do you like have you thought about solutions to this? I mean, you've been inundated with a bunch of problems, but have you had any solutions and come through your?
Andrea (25:22.646)
Right.
Andrea (25:37.728)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (25:47.246)
I mean...
Cara Lunsford (25:51.239)
Incredible mind.
Andrea (25:52.174)
first solution is that the patient's Bill of Rights actually has to include disability language. Because here's the thing, no one in healthcare has actually taught that language and I think we've spoken about that before. So if we are not even taught the language, how do we performatively engage with those who actively live with disabilities every single day? And then...
In the terms of our bioethics and in the four principles that maintain all of our standards of healthcare, we're not listening to our patients' decision and we don't even have the information to fully educate them, then we're doing a disservice straight out of the gate. Because we don't have the language to be able to even speak to those that are living with their disabilities, to then be able to educate them well enough so that they can advocate for themselves when things like this do happen.
Because then we write our patients off. They're either going to be drug seeking, they're the frequent flyers, they're the ones like I kid you not, my whole time I'm watching social media to get through this mess. And I'm seeing nurses talk about patients as though the patients aren't going to see those videos and ask them for help.
Right? So I'm scrolling and you're talking about how family members are overreacting over someone who's in the ICU. And yes, we know how hard it is to keep someone from dying. We get that because we're in it. And we know how heartbreaking that is because we know what it takes to keep us here. But families don't know that and they're acting off of emotion. So imagine me as the patient who is also emotional because this is happening to me in real time. You also don't have the language to give me to try to get through it.
or how to advocate through it, and you're in the same position to not actually help because your education was never involving a disability itself and how that actually lives in the real world.
Cara Lunsford (27:57.159)
Yeah. And, and, and I don't think that they're able or feel capable of, I'm gonna step back for a second. So when people are in fight or flight, right? Like when people are in a panic mode, right? Like patients are and nurses are, okay. You can't see each other.
Andrea (28:13.036)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (28:21.676)
Mm -hmm.
Cara Lunsford (28:26.599)
when you're in that space. There's just, it's not possible. It's because you're both just trying to keep your own oxygen mask on. And it's expected the patient's gonna be kind of in that place because they are fighting for their lives. So.
Andrea (28:38.158)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (28:49.71)
Their most vulnerable spot, yeah.
Cara Lunsford (28:51.495)
Like physically, physically they are fighting for their lives, right? So the burden is on the healthcare industry to make sure that the nurses are not or all the healthcare providers are not.
Andrea (28:56.79)
Mm -hmm.
Cara Lunsford (29:11.751)
in that similar situation. Because otherwise, that is a recipe for disaster, right? They're not going to be able to see each other. And...
Andrea (29:18.06)
Right.
Cara Lunsford (29:22.503)
the healthcare provider has to be able to see that patient, to understand that patient, to have the time and the space and the energy and just the mindfulness of being able to educate themselves because they're not, when they're in that space, they're not reading a book. They're not educating themselves. They can't. They're like,
Andrea (29:47.182)
No. No.
Andrea (29:51.566)
They can't.
Cara Lunsford (29:52.457)
they're like, no, I don't have time to learn about, you know, different social determinants of health and different, you know, like they, they're like, I don't have time to do that. I just got to give these meds, I got to get this thing in, I got to take this person here, I got to, I haven't eaten, I, blah, blah, all this stuff, right? And so we have to, we have to bring down that level of anxiety.
Andrea (30:02.862)
Terminates, yeah, right.
You
Cara Lunsford (30:21.703)
so that they can absorb the information that is necessary for them to be able to provide the care that people like you and other people need. Right?
Andrea (30:37.998)
It is. I mean, listen, we can, we talk about this, right? And we know what our patients are saying. Our patients are struggling just to have insurance cover insulin. Right? So, I mean, and we laugh about it because it's like, it's our coping mechanism. But at the end of the day, it's like, again, you still hear these nurses online. What used to be the nursing secret and our laugh within our bubble has now become the laugh of the world because we put it out there on social media.
Cara Lunsford (31:07.367)
Right.
Andrea (31:07.63)
And whether you're a nurse today and a patient tomorrow, you absorb that information too. Nurses on TikTok are making laughs at the expense of them letting off steam, but also forgetting that that expense is on the back of the person who's seeking care from you. And these stories really do define how other people now see us as a profession.
Cara Lunsford (31:27.463)
Yeah. Yep.
Andrea (31:37.262)
And I'm going to tell you from the personal standpoint, like I, as a nurse now, or as a patient, I used to see my nurses as the ones who knew it all. Like it's the nurse that I want to know who's the most senior nurse. Like I want to know who's been there and done it. And so I can run back and forth. Like, what do you think here? Right. And it's always two nurses are better than one physician. And we know this within our profession. No offense, physicians, you know, we love you too, but.
It's the nursing camaraderie. You see it.
Cara Lunsford (32:09.511)
You're at the bedside all the time. I mean, like, it's understanding the patient, holistically understanding the patient. It's not about smarts. It's not about how much education you've had. It's not about, that's just, I mean, I hate to say common sense because people always go, well, you know, common sense isn't so common, you know? But the thing is, is that like, that's just, it's just factual, okay? The nurse,
Andrea (32:20.27)
and knowing it, right?
No.
Cara Lunsford (32:39.465)
are with the patients longer throughout the day than the physicians are. Yes, they just are. Yeah, so they're bound to know more about what's going on. Of course they do.
Andrea (32:39.47)
It's how long you, yeah.
Andrea (32:44.91)
They see the changes. They see what's coming. They are. Now.
Andrea (32:56.462)
And now with this lack of support, the lack of the ratios, this extra tasking, all of this documentation, all of this pressure to be and not just focus assessments, not just worried about the patient. Like now it's the make sure you've checked in in every hour. And that check -in may not even be the right check -in because you're just opening the door. Are you okay? Okay, God, bye. Like.
And this is at major hospital systems. Yeah, right. Like.
Cara Lunsford (33:27.087)
Value -based work. Value -based work is important. Like do stuff that matters.
Andrea (33:32.782)
It is. And you know, you just want to, you wonder, but even on the patient side, I'm so used, I've seen the transition from being a teenager in the system and what it used to look like before insurance changed to now. And I can tell you that it is detrimental out there. And I, when people were staying away from the hospitals because it was just COVID.
People are staying away from the hospitals just because healthcare is hard to trust right now.
Cara Lunsford (34:07.943)
Yeah, and we used to be the most trusted profession. Nurses used to be the most trusted profession. I don't know how we're going to maintain that title. So, okay, I had created Holly Blue because I felt that nurses needed a private social network to talk about the things that were bothering them.
Andrea (34:17.078)
I'm sorry.
Andrea (34:32.046)
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (34:37.191)
because I don't think that some of that stuff needs to make it outside of the profession. People need to vent, people need to trauma bond, people need to talk internally and problem solve, but sometimes it's on a need to know basis.
Andrea (35:02.382)
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (35:02.759)
It's not that the general public shouldn't understand that there are problems within healthcare. They should, but they shouldn't be the butt of the joke. Right? Like they don't need to be the butt of the joke.
Andrea (35:18.19)
or it even speaks to the care that we receive. So I used to laugh at this all the time when we talk about, you know, the snow of patients, you take off their socks and it snows. And it never really bothered me. You know, we'd kiki, ha ha, laugh, laugh. And then you see it kind of let it snow and you see a sock on a sweater and you laugh, ha ha, because we get it within nursing. But then when you're the patient and you have no text on the floor,
So there's no real opportunity to have a shower and you're given bath wipes because that's what a lot of hospital systems are moving towards now, bath wipes only and not giving you a container of water with soap just for time constraints or tasking reasons. And then you start to realize that the moisturizers that you're giving you aren't exactly great for your skin. So you're putting the moisturizer on but then you're putting the sock over it and then the moment...
you take that sock off, your skin is still dry. So that shows. So now in my mind, I'm seeing that joke is actually that's the care that you give me. That the reason why I have that is because of the care that I've received, not because it's a joke anymore. A lack of care, right? It's the actual lack of care, right? And now it's not a joke anymore. And now I'm thinking, okay, wait a minute.
Cara Lunsford (36:18.759)
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (36:27.079)
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (36:30.791)
Yeah, or lack of care, like the lack of care. Yes, the lack of care you've received.
Andrea (36:41.998)
my grandfather has that or like somebody else is going to see that their grandparent has that in the hospital and nurses are laughing about it. But then it's actually them not coming in and actually taking care and making sure that the skin is hydrated and making sure that that skin is exfoliated and healing so that we're not causing for a breakdown or moisture or, you know, necrosis to occur because that skin keeps layering over and over and avoiding oxygenation.
And these are the things that now I start to think about because I'm split between both sides. I see the butt of the joke as funny because I'm also the nurse and I get it and we have to trauma bond and we laugh and this is what we do every day. But then as the patient, I'm like, wait a minute, hold on a second. I know what that means now. And I can't continue to laugh anymore.
Cara Lunsford (37:27.975)
Yeah. Yeah. And it's heartbreaking.
Yeah, and it's it really is it is heartbreaking. And I think we've all caught ourselves in those moments of like, where we, we laugh at something because, you know, if you don't laugh, you'll cry, right? Like, I think that that's kind of like what nurses have gotten to that place where they're like, Well, if I don't laugh, I'm gonna cry. And I'm just gonna give up, I'm just gonna stop working. And because, because this is also ridiculous. And
Andrea (37:43.63)
cry.
Andrea (37:53.998)
Yeah.
Andrea (37:58.542)
You
Cara Lunsford (38:00.999)
and I can't see my way through it otherwise. But you know it's really hard when...
when we realize that it's not funny. Because then you're like, well now what am I gonna do?
Andrea (38:32.75)
Right. And this is what I'm saying, right? Like, I just had all this time to sit and literally scrolled all of social media trying to find nurses talking about anything that was remotely related to a hospital stay for a patient that I can learn from. And I was like, it's one thing to be the point example of whatever you're explaining, but how about...
Cara Lunsford (38:34.311)
my, you know, what am I gonna do?
Andrea (39:01.486)
we flip that and actually be the nurse that teaches about what you're going through and what you may see and what you may encounter here because I understand that this may be anxiety inducing for you, but this is what's going on on our end, right? Because now you're shifting the narrative to say, okay, this is my side of the picture and you can see what I'm doing over here and yes, I'm busy and I'm sorry to get back to you, but don't put the blame on the patient, put the blame back on the system itself.
Cara Lunsford (39:29.255)
Yeah. Yeah. And create a narrative where people are wanting to have compassion, right? Your job is going to be easier if patients have compassion for you. And if you have compassion for them, that's what's going to make the job easier. Okay? If you create a dynamic where...
Andrea (39:30.254)
Put the plane back on the system.
Andrea (39:34.99)
the solution or yeah.
Andrea (39:47.822)
Mm -hmm.
Cara Lunsford (39:58.759)
The patients are already resenting you before they've even walked in the door.
Do you think that your shift is gonna be easy? No, it's gonna be exponentially harder than it already would have been. But we all know as nurses that like a hard day can be made easier by a patient or a family that has compassion for you. And a hard day can be made a lot harder when a patient or a family...
Andrea (40:27.596)
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (40:33.607)
doesn't give two shits about you. And so that's on us. Yeah, we're making it harder.
Andrea (40:37.39)
But we're making it harder. Yeah. And we're making it harder. And it's only because our secrets are out in the open. And if that doesn't ring true, just sit for two minutes scrolling on nurse talker or nurses of Instagram's hashtag. And you will see that the narrative has shifted to we, we, we, we. Listen, stick to our ratios and calling for better services for ourselves. But this nitpicking to the patient.
or putting it back over on the other, don't do this. Because I'm telling you as a patient, I think that was the most, it was the most, I think it's the hardest thing that I had to face from March to now. Like just this sense of, I'm the nurse, I know, please like don't tell me how to do my job. And that's the same thing that I'm seeing on social media being presented like.
No, I've had my chronic illness for over 30 years. I think I know me a little bit more than you know this job. So give me a moment to let you know, or just hear me out or respect me enough to let me say my piece before you tell me how you feel or let's collaborate together. Like healthcare is on one way ticket telling people to, to not come to the hospital because what did they think that they were going to receive? I think.
Patients are allowed to have discourse over how they're feeling and how they're being treated. And if they oppose a certain treatment because of whatever lifestyle they live, that's okay too. So long as we've educated them enough on our end to what we know and give them direction on how they want to go and what best to do for follow up. Don't just tell them, don't come seek care if, if.
If they didn't want the help in the first place, I think everyone who's seeking care is asking a question that is hoping is going to be answered. And sometimes those answers aren't what we want to hear as human beings. And when we don't want to hear those answers, sometimes we shut down and we need a moment to kind of gather our thoughts on it. But you dismiss us. And for instance, this whole time for me, I was actually advocating for myself, putting out the facts.
Cara Lunsford (42:36.295)
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (42:52.453)
Yeah.
Andrea (42:59.182)
and then being labeled a problem patient because I'm advocating for myself or because of the fact that I don't want to die. And I'm literally saying, I don't think that this is the best way. And this is what my thought process is. And they're like, well, we do it this way. And I'm like, I understand that this has been done, but we've done this before and it didn't work. I don't want to necessarily go down this track.
Cara Lunsford (43:05.095)
Because you don't want to die. Because you don't want to die. Yeah.
Andrea (43:24.494)
If we do go down this track, at what point do we say, okay, we need to switch tracks. What are we looking for in that instance? Can you give me that? And it becomes a rebuttal again. Well, we have to wait till we get there. And I'm not fighting you. I'm also just trying to make sure that as a nurse, I know what I'm looking for. We, we move off of.
Cara Lunsford (43:43.143)
It's collaborative. It has to be collaborative. You got to, you, you, you got to be able to find that humility. I think like as a practitioner, you got to be able to take your ego, set it to the side. You got to be able to figure out how to be humble and say, you know what? I don't, I don't have a lot of time. Yeah. I don't know what I don't know. I, you know,
Andrea (43:57.646)
side.
Andrea (44:06.126)
We don't know and we're doing this together. Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (44:12.455)
I understand and have compassion for the fact that my, my patient is scared and doesn't have confidence in the system and doesn't have, and.
Andrea (44:19.702)
Mm -hmm.
Cara Lunsford (44:27.045)
and check in with yourself and be like, would I have confidence in the system? If I were here, would I have confidence in the system? If I were in that bed, would I have confidence? I guarantee you most nurses would say no. Most nurses would fall.
Andrea (44:31.726)
Yeah.
Andrea (44:41.326)
but that's why they call us the problem, right? Like we're the problem patients, the nurses and the doctors. They always say, we're the worst, we make the worst patients, but why is that? Is that because we know what we want out of our care and we have observed the best of care and now know what to ask and asked for or how to differentiate responses because we work it.
And we also have worked it where we are seeing our most vulnerable clients and patients in that struggle. So now when we are the patient, we always hear that we are the worst ones. Like we make the worst patients, but we're not. We make the best patients because we ask the questions. We make you think on your feet. We make you use that degree that you work for, that critical thinking. Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (45:32.027)
We're raising the bar. We're raising the bar. Like you can't, you're not going to get to phone it in here. Like you, you, you might've been able to phone it in on, you know, in room 10, but you're not going to be able to phone it in over here. Like, and, and I think that that sometimes creates like, nobody wants to feel like they are incompetent.
Andrea (45:38.464)
No!
Andrea (45:45.304)
What?
Andrea (45:50.282)
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (46:01.383)
they don't want to feel they they want to feel like they know what they're doing. And I'm going to say right now like look, you know, I have a
Andrea (46:01.39)
Right.
Cara Lunsford (46:11.687)
whole lot of compassion and empathy for people who graduated during COVID and right before and the education or even the lack of education that they received and how so much of it might have been virtual and how much of it you weren't even allowed to really touch patients in the hospital. You could watch but you couldn't do, you know, and there's the list goes on.
Andrea (46:17.686)
yeah.
Cara Lunsford (46:41.641)
on and on. So it's not your fault. Let's start there. It's not your fault. You're a product of a really broken system. But when it becomes your fault is when...
Andrea (46:47.628)
Yeah.
Andrea (46:54.414)
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (47:00.473)
you don't listen. You don't set your ego aside. You don't show up with some humility. That you don't listen to the patient and say, I need to hear what this person is saying to me because maybe they know more than I do, which is probably true. They know their body better than I know their body. And we need to sit down and be collaborative about this.
If you don't do those things, then it is your fault.
Andrea (47:34.35)
Yeah.
Yeah, we need to, we have to not only listen to hear, but listen to understand. Because we don't need to understand for ourselves, we need to understand for our patients. Because they're the ones living in this world, day in and day out, in a world not made for not any single one of us, we just live in it. And we navigate it differently, all of us. And if we don't listen, then how do we create the change or the solution?
Cara Lunsford (48:09.147)
Yep. Sometimes it's so basic, right? Sometimes it's really basic. Sometimes it's like really core.
Andrea (48:10.638)
And I always say this too, like, it is, but I mean, it's also...
You know, I always think about it on the side, like, you know, the nurses are like talking about all the things that we need, especially with staffing ratios. And I was like, imagine if we had the patients on our side to talk about the fact that they're not able to get up and go to the bathroom whenever they want spontaneity because they don't have the staff and the task to help the task force to help. And it's like, if the patients were able to speak up and say, I'm with the nurses. Then.
this movement may actually go a little bit further versus now this distrust that has created a bigger barrier within the nursing community, within the medical community, within hospital systems and patients itself. There's a huge gap here where we can literally either come together and move forward and ask for this and demand it in ways that it can actually come true. Or we can continue down very separate lanes where,
Patients are asking for Medicare and Medicaid not to be cut and nurses are asking for more staff and better ratios and so forth, but both can't meet in the middle if both are asking for the same thing from the same pot in different ways.
Cara Lunsford (49:30.471)
Yeah, yeah, we have to we we absolutely have got to come together because you're not going to be able to address any of these other issues, the issues of disparities and ADA. And those are things that are
It's kind of like if people are starving, there's no way that you can talk to them about like, let me show you how to ride a bike. And they're like, I need a sandwich, man. Like, you know, it's like, I'm not, I can't learn how to ride a bike right now. Like, I just need some food. Yeah.
Andrea (50:09.998)
Yeah, right.
Andrea (50:16.702)
spending energy. Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (50:19.431)
And so it's like, we gotta start with like the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. We gotta get down way down in the basics, right? Before we're ever gonna be able to climb up and care about people.
you know, who are different from us or, you know, have different struggles or look different or, you know, speak differently or, you know, whatever it is, it's like, we're not even going to be able to get there. You know, so, so it does start like what you said about just, you know, listening and caring and coming together and creating unity and compassion and avoiding divide.
Andrea (50:48.174)
Right.
Andrea (50:51.63)
Exactly.
Andrea (51:04.686)
Right.
Cara Lunsford (51:07.047)
Right?
Andrea (51:09.23)
We have to figure out this divide now and close it. And I think for all the nurses and those of us who are listening in, it's like.
You know, there's this whole movement on social media to like stop talking or stop spreading misinformation. Well, we need to stop spreading the insider information for nurses unless it's like educational to our patients. Like keep, keep the nursing bubble, the nursing bubble. Like, right?
Cara Lunsford (51:36.423)
You can come over to nurse .com if you really want to do that. If you really want to talk about things like, you know, we have a community, you can come over here, you can talk and trauma bond and you can do all that. And that's fine. Like we know that that's necessary. We know you need to vent. Okay, we know that this is a hard, hard, hard career.
Andrea (51:45.358)
Yes.
Andrea (51:51.328)
Yes.
Andrea (51:58.67)
career.
Cara Lunsford (52:00.487)
It is, okay? That's not lost on anybody, especially the two of us. It's not lost on us, you know, right? But you got to stop doing it out where...
Andrea (52:06.286)
We lost, definitely not.
Cara Lunsford (52:17.479)
other you know that that that the public can see this and and lose respect for you they're losing respect for you.
Andrea (52:25.708)
Right.
And just the system, the trust in the system. If anything, we were supposed to be trying to build back this trust post COVID. Like, trust us, we are here for you, we are helping you, so on and so forth. Even when insurance is crappy. And we know that, that's a different ball game. We're not even on that. This is just healthcare. This is the first line of defense, whether you're going to a clinic, whether you're going into a hospital, when you're in preventative care, whether you're in community care, it's nursing.
It's the first line of healthcare and we're creating this world where patients are able to openly access what nurses are thinking just like anybody else in the world. But the way that we present is going to at some point or already hurt the communities that we're in.
We're supposed to be inviting. We're supposed to be like, yes, we are here. Please come ask us that question. That's why people ask us, can you look at this bird? Can you look at this, please? Right. And that's the joke of, of nurses week that we just came off of. It's like, if you've asked us to help you, we deserve a thank you. That's it. Like, just remember us this week. But then you go and you post it online while my patient did this or.
the grannies in the ceiling come out of the ceiling, right? Or someone's trying to pack up and go home or again, like we make these skits, we make these laughs and these jokes. They don't wanna be here. They're tired. And I always say.
Cara Lunsford (54:00.679)
Of course they're trying to pack up and go home. They don't want to be there.
Cara Lunsford (54:07.335)
I feel like what's gonna happen is that patients are gonna start making videos about us. That's what's gonna happen.
Andrea (54:11.15)
but that's here's the thing but that's happening and they don't like it They don't like it. We don't like Don't don't don't fill me when I'm at work and I understand that too because like the sanctity of our job is you know, please like it's science this is not Like everything is a checkoff. It's science. We practice science. So
Cara Lunsford (54:18.871)
Well done Phil guy, does it?
Cara Lunsford (54:26.853)
Yeah.
Andrea (54:39.566)
No, everything is not going to be linear or parallel. It's going to be all over the place and look different for every single patient that walks in the door. So again, this is why I think the lens should be always coming from a place of empathy and care. And I want to educate you versus I'm going to nitpick these things that I see. And it's continuously happening in every community. So everyone can then say, but I know someone that's been through that or.
Granny went through that or my aunt went through that or my mom had this happen. And the thing is, at any point in time, just like disability, anybody can become sick and anybody at any given point in time may need medical care. So then what kind of presentation are we showing to people? I don't want this. I don't like it. I didn't like it as a patient this go around. And I think it impacted me even more to come back into my profession when I'm well enough to say,
enough is enough, I need to give this education to those with disabilities because we're at the bottom of the totem pole as it is. And if I don't give this education to them, they're now running the risk of losing their lives because this is what's out there. And the potential for them not to be heard, listened to, given compassion, have a plan of care, have a complete breakdown in that care is too risky when their lives are already so fragile.
and their day -to -day is already dependent upon so much.
Cara Lunsford (56:09.319)
You have to really look at the most vulnerable in society, right? It's like, it's almost like when you're triaging, right? You're kind of like, well, you can walk. You can't. Like, I have to...
Andrea (56:19.67)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (56:26.254)
Yes.
Cara Lunsford (56:28.783)
you know, focus over here. It's like we, you're, what I hear you saying is that you're, you're triaging essentially and going like, you know what, you know where I have to focus? I got to focus over here. Cause these are the people that are the most vulnerable. Okay. They're not going to make it. You know, if they don't, maybe they don't have,
Maybe they don't have family or they don't have advocates or they don't have this. Lots of people do not have advocates, but if you can speak for yourself or you can look something up or you have a certain educational, it's like, well, then you are already doing better than someone else maybe. So, you know, I really appreciate how much, how much you do and, and.
Andrea (57:09.902)
Exactly.
Cara Lunsford (57:20.935)
you know, just like with everything you've got going on, you are still thinking about people who are living with disabilities.
Andrea (57:30.51)
Yeah, I have to. And the only reason why is because there's no literature that says an African -American female who has paralysis is going to live until they're 90 because they followed this diet or this exercise routine and this medical regimen. Like there's no literature for me. And once...
this community starts to hit their late 30s into their early 50s. That's what we call deaf zone. And in the community, it's because most of the time there's usually a breakdown in care where you either didn't get a cancer screening because of accessibility, you don't have regular follow -up because there's probably some lapse of insurance somewhere, either switching of a job, losing of a job because of some type of medical issue where you're not working anymore.
Medicaid, Medicare, maybe not cover something that's needed. And therefore, you know, it becomes the lapse and then it prolongs care. And then therefore prolonged care in the spinal cord injury community is equal to a death sentence. Wounds are, are wounds, cancer and blood clots are number one killers. And there's no regimen anywhere.
to follow this. And here I am going through what was given to me, which was surgical wound, and then not having wound care to follow up or not following up with like a team once a week, or even if I were a lay person to know what prevalent drainage looked like or what I should be looking like on a scar line. That information's not in the public. I knew that to take care of me, but for someone,
Like I said, in this death gap right now, that could be their time because they don't know how to follow up or ask those questions or know who to look for or even new nurses in the field not knowing what to look for or what to report on. So there's so many things that are happening right now that I just feel like this, my community right now needs me more than ever. I am looking to figure out going back for my DNP.
Andrea (59:52.622)
and doing it clinically and doing it with education so that there could be some physical literature somewhere that even a lay person or if I can get it out to the disability organizations with like nursing backing like please because we have to ensure that these communities are not just being put to the bottom of the healthcare totem pole.
Cara Lunsford (59:53.191)
Good for you.
Andrea (01:00:18.254)
Because that's what this is where we drive innovation. If we can figure out the bottom, we start to figure out what's happening in the middle and at the top. We did that with diabetes, right? With insulin being able to come down to a certain level. Now we just need to make sure that the money is there to be able to fund for these people to get it at ease, but still.
Cara Lunsford (01:00:19.047)
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (01:00:38.759)
Yeah, and be able to get to the core of what's causing diabetes in the first place, right? Like, you know, maybe actually having health care, like actual health, like real health care, not sick care, not sick care, but like health care, like keep people, keep people well. More preventative care. Yeah.
Andrea (01:00:46.35)
causing it. Right. The diabetes, the hypertension.
Andrea (01:00:56.076)
yet.
Andrea (01:00:59.534)
Preventative care. The preventative care. Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (01:01:05.031)
keeping people out of the hospitals and keeping them well. I mean, imagine that. Imagine a world.
Andrea (01:01:11.406)
that's real imagination. Willy Wonka type style.
Cara Lunsford (01:01:17.575)
She's like, what are you, what are you drinking? What kind of special tea do you have over there? Yeah, don't worry. It's in the mail. It's in the mail. Well, I...
Andrea (01:01:23.438)
I need some!
Cara Lunsford (01:01:39.527)
I was thinking to myself, I was like, what are we talking about in here? And honestly, there's so much that you could unpack from this whole episode. But I really think that like some of what you shared and one of the biggest takeaways is about creating unity, you know, between how can you get closer together? How can you bridge the gap?
Andrea (01:02:09.678)
Hmm.
Cara Lunsford (01:02:09.849)
how can you come towards one another instead of pushing away? And because I think some of the other things will fall into place if we can get to that unity, that place of unity.
Andrea (01:02:36.206)
You know, if I can say one thing, I started watching ER all over again. Okay, so I did and I had a lot of time in my hands guys. So like, I watched Grey's Anatomy as much as I could from beginning to maybe season 15. But then I was like, I wanted to go back and watch ER and you watch Grey's Anatomy and you'd like,
Cara Lunsford (01:02:40.295)
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (01:02:45.255)
Did you?
Andrea (01:03:06.196)
Two providers helping a patient fresh out of surgery. What? That's unheard of. But then when you look at ER and how things used to be completely paper, completely jam -packed chaos in an ER, like even up to the floor where Clooney used to play a PEDS doctor, okay, like, we're throwing it back right now. And just...
If anyone watches the medical dramas in your diehard like me, there is a clear difference in how the medical writers of the early 90s and the 80s wrote and how they interacted with patients and the questions that they asked versus what they asked in Grey's Anatomy and what they asked in house and what they've asked in the resident.
And I made very clear distinctions between the empathy and level of care that was to lead towards a discussion of care in ER versus in Gray's anatomy or all the rest of the ones that I just mentioned, giving the direction of care versus let's get the questions towards getting to care.
very distinct and you can see it in the way the two shows operate. They use medical writers to write these shows, they have doctors come and put their input in nurses and so on and so forth. You can see the difference between time in these two shows and how just.
Medically, we've gone very different. Yeah, very different. Just in the language.
Cara Lunsford (01:04:47.527)
how it's evolved.
Cara Lunsford (01:04:52.615)
So interesting. Now I'm going to have to go back and take a look. I'm, you know, cause I, I know, right? Suddenly they're going to be like, wow, we're getting all these residuals and people are like, you know, well you can thank. Yes. Yes. You can thank this episode for that. yeah.
Andrea (01:04:57.358)
Well, I hope that that drives the ratings for ER on Hulu, but right.
Andrea (01:05:08.908)
Watching again? Yes, go watch Young George Clooney.
It's a lot, yeah. You can see the shift in dialogue, how things came about, and almost kind of where we're losing touch today.
Cara Lunsford (01:05:31.303)
Well, I think that's going back to being disconnected.
Andrea (01:05:32.012)
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (01:05:39.815)
Right. I was interviewed just recently by, a young guy. He's 18 years old. He, he, he asked me if I would be on his podcast. And he just like literally came up to me and we were talking and then I said, would you be on my podcast? And I said, sure. And so he went and he set up right away and, and it was called stranger danger was the name of his podcast. And it's a little tongue in cheek, right? Cause it's supposed to be that it's that it's good to talk.
Andrea (01:06:04.398)
Hehe!
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (01:06:09.769)
to stranger like you need to talk to people you need to get you need to feel comfortable being uncomfortable and it's important to to connect and not be disconnected and he was talking about how his generation is very disconnected because of what he feels is the effects of social media technology certain things like that that have
Andrea (01:06:18.412)
Mm -hmm.
Cara Lunsford (01:06:36.935)
helped people connect on one level, but completely disconnect on another level. And so we, I think, we really do have to get back to some basics here. The basics of humanity. And, you know, it sounds, I don't know, it sounds like I'm, I'm...
I'm being trite in a way where it's like, you need compassion, you need empathy, you need this. And it's like, you know, well, isn't that granola of you? Isn't that woo woo? You know, and it's like, no, that's it. That's it. That's the stuff. That's the stuff.
Andrea (01:07:18.584)
When we were, that's it. Do you remember when elementary school kids and high school kids were getting donated classroom computers so that they could learn how to type emails and write letters and the setup and the format? Like we went through this. So the flip side is at that timeframe, they had improv class and acting class and sing and all of these interactive things to do in school.
Cara Lunsford (01:07:35.303)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (01:07:47.662)
And today, half of those things have been cut. Every classroom has a computer. So we're in the technology room. So now we have to flip it. You have all of this technology. Now we have to make sure that you have the improv and the acting and everything else so that you have that one -on -one interaction and not just being in front of the technology every time. I think it's the same role in healthcare. A lot of it was our stimulation is online. Let's do a lot of our stuff online. And...
We know the answers now, like our generations that come after me, they know the answers. They know where to find that on the computer. But ask them to go into a patient's room that does not speak a word of English and ask them to have confidence in how they're going to communicate while trying to get a translator on the phone. Most of them are just going to smile, nod their head, keep patting around a little bit, checking to make sure things are okay, and then leaving the room hoping that a translator shows up soon.
and that patient is sitting there like, I don't know what's going on and I can't communicate. It's the same thing. It's just now we flipped it before we didn't have this technology and we had it limited and we were forced to interact with people. And now...
Cara Lunsford (01:08:47.835)
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (01:09:02.535)
I think everyone should, I think every nurse should have to go and do abroad. No, well, yes. Yes, I do think they should have to do some level of improv. Funny enough, I was a sign language interpreter before I was a nurse. So I cannot tell you the number of times that I have used some level of miming.
Andrea (01:09:07.392)
Improv?
Andrea (01:09:14.69)
I'm
Andrea (01:09:27.404)
Mm -hmm.
Cara Lunsford (01:09:27.739)
to communicate with a patient who was not deaf, by the way, just like I couldn't communicate with them because of a language barrier or whatever it was. And so I was like, okay, like, are you hungry? Do you want to eat? Like, do you want this? Do you want this? It's like, you know, this good? No? Like, okay, like, you know, and you're pointing and you're, you know, holding things up and, but.
Andrea (01:09:35.66)
Right.
Andrea (01:09:44.842)
Right. Like, yeah.
Yeah, no.
Cara Lunsford (01:09:58.135)
being resourceful also allows you to create connections. And again, we're gonna keep bringing it back, bringing it back to connection. It's like, you gotta connect to people in order to care about them, okay? You're not going to care about them if you can't figure out how to have compassion, connect with them, have empathy. You're not, you cannot, it's not possible.
Andrea (01:10:25.006)
It's also the nurses on the floor that's like, yeah, send me the bad patients because I know how to connect with them. And it's like, this patient over here is not the greatest because they talked back to me or they were just grumpy that morning. And the thing is, it's like, I love to say this so you know, nobody hate me. Hospitals are upgraded jail cells, okay? They're upgraded jail cells. I'm not allowed to leave. I'm not allowed to have whoever I want with me.
I'm limited to how many patients, family members that can come visit me at any given time, even if they are quiet, doesn't matter, they only let one or two people up at a time. I was like, I can't randomly pick whatever food I want. If I tell you I'm allergic to bananas, but I want a banana muffin because I know that I can, the baked banana is not gonna harm me anymore, you're still not gonna give me the banana muffin because I said I'm allergic to it. Like.
It's upgraded jail. People are walking in and out of my room at any given point in time. I don't always get introduced to everybody coming in. I have no concept of what's going to happen to me. And you are following a certain set of rules. It's upgraded jail. And the wardens are the nurses. And then the deputies are the ones at the front desk. And you really just...
Cara Lunsford (01:11:33.255)
Heheheheh
Andrea (01:11:45.902)
You have, you really have to understand a patient being completely vulnerable at that level of needing care, being in pain, not being able to be the most humanistic person with mannerisms at every given moment of the day, and then being told what they can and cannot do by people who are not even in their lives every day. And then being told that if they don't listen,
that it's their own fault or, you know, we've given it to you and now we're frustrated. So again, you know, we have to be able to kind of think about the fact that, and that's why I brought up earlier, you know, like our frequent flyers, they may know the comfort is to be able to come into the ER and understand that they're gonna be able to act a certain way, have a certain level of attention given to them, maybe see their favorite nurse or their nurse tech or nurse's aide or whatever the case is.
get their favorite ham and cheese sandwich and then know that they're gonna eat for that day. Right? Like same thing on the floor. Like you're gonna have someone who's gonna come to the floor who has a chronic illness, who really doesn't wanna be there, had to come in because they know that they had no other choice, wish that insurance would pay for their treatments at home, but again, no other choice. And now have to deal with the structure of a unit that they're not really wanting to be on.
And then people poking in and asking the same question 20 or 30 or 40 times. And then being expected to be happy and cheerful. Every time to every single person that walks in the room and hold decorum. I'm sorry. That's not going to happen.
Cara Lunsford (01:13:21.753)
Mm -hmm.
Cara Lunsford (01:13:28.871)
Nope, it's not. It's not, but that, I mean, but it paints a picture, right? Is that like, we have to, I know it's hard. Nurses are like, we don't understand how hard, yes we do. Yes we do. No, we do. We do understand how hard it is. It's hard for everybody. It's hard for everyone. And,
Andrea (01:13:44.878)
I understand. I understand.
Andrea (01:13:52.258)
Everyone.
Cara Lunsford (01:13:55.463)
but I guarantee you, you are not making your life easier. Okay, you're not by separating yourself from it, distancing yourself, connecting with just the nurses, but not connecting with the patients. You're not helping yourself.
Maybe in the moment you feel like you are, it's kind of like when you have a bad day and you're like, I'm going to have a glass of wine and maybe I'm going to have two or three. It's like, you know, it's a bandaid. It feels good. Maybe in the moment. Are you helping yourself in the long run? Probably not. Probably not, you know.
Andrea (01:14:28.078)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (01:14:33.582)
Bye.
Andrea (01:14:37.55)
We're telling your patients don't eat McDonald's but your drive -thru order is the whole dollar menu.
Cara Lunsford (01:14:43.975)
Exactly. Right. So I mean, like, that's how you Yeah, that's, that's how you create connection where it's like, you know, you try to connect over like the little things like if your patient like is like, I love McDonald's, don't separate yourself if you if you're somebody who like I don't like McDonald's personally, but like if you are somebody who regularly eats McDonald's, don't separate yourself from them be like, you know what? I totally
Andrea (01:14:49.742)
Right?
Cara Lunsford (01:15:11.579)
You know, I sit here and I tell people don't eat this stuff, but I do it every day. Every day I roll through that drive through and I get this egg McMuffin or whatever it is. And then that's, you know what? That's connection. But you're creating connection in that moment. You are not creating divide. You're coming together. And you're...
Andrea (01:15:17.87)
even still right muffin
Andrea (01:15:31.342)
And you're allowing that patient to open up. You're allowing that patient to feel a little bit more secure and being able to say, okay, well, I understand that you do this. This is telling me not to do this. What do you think? Right? And us being able to say it happens, but now we have to think about other alternatives. Like maybe we can make it our own way. Maybe we can find a hack. Right? Like...
Cara Lunsford (01:15:43.911)
Yeah. Yep.
Cara Lunsford (01:15:55.719)
Yeah, you don't have to put yourself up on a pedestal, right? Like it's, it's, it's good to get down in the depths with people, right? It's like getting down in the darkness together. That's connection, right? Getting getting that's
Andrea (01:15:59.634)
No.
Andrea (01:16:10.766)
Right. But also, what is it? What is it called? Sorry to cut you off. Communication. What is it called? They teach us this in nursing school. What is it called? Yeah, right. So, right, it's communication. Fill the blank. Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (01:16:18.085)
No, that's good.
Cara Lunsford (01:16:21.863)
like, boy, it's been a long time since I was in nursing school, but I know what you're talking about. It's a something communication. It's kind of like, it's a, it's something communication. And for those of you who want to go look it up. But yes, there is like a type, right? A type of communication that promotes,
compassion, empathy, connection, things like that, that bring you closer together and then there's types of communication that separate you.
Andrea (01:16:50.924)
Right.
Andrea (01:16:55.886)
Right, exactly. And this one is that. It's saying, well, not that I'm going to be silent and let you vent, but I'm actually going to say, yeah, this sucks and I'm here with you. And I understand it sucks. And being humanistic in the experience.
Cara Lunsford (01:17:06.895)
Mm -hmm.
Cara Lunsford (01:17:12.679)
That's the difference between empathy and sympathy, right? Like the, I haven't mentioned Brene Brown in a while, so I think it's due time that I mentioned her, but she has a really, really great YouTube video that talks about the difference between empathy and sympathy.
Andrea (01:17:15.66)
Right.
Andrea (01:17:28.438)
Okay.
Cara Lunsford (01:17:33.335)
and an empathy was like, you know, you've got someone who's down in the bottom of a well, right? And they are suffering and you crawl down the ladder or you, you know, you get down into that dark pit with them and you tap into something in yourself.
that feels familiar to what maybe they're going through. So like if this person is saying, I've never felt more scared than I do right now, then what you do is you literally bring yourself into a moment where you remember being scared. And you sit down there in that dark place together.
Andrea (01:18:21.026)
Mm -hmm.
Cara Lunsford (01:18:28.135)
and that creates connection and that creates empathy and creates compassion. If you do what's considered called silver lining it, right? Like if you try to silver lining someone's pain, it's like saying to you, well, at least you have your arms.
Andrea (01:18:52.814)
Yeah.
Cara Lunsford (01:18:54.407)
Right? Like, you know, no, you don't you don't need that. Right? You don't need someone to try and put a silver lining on your pain. And, you know, because that creates disconnection, right? And, you know, so that's
Andrea (01:19:00.596)
Exactly.
Cara Lunsford (01:19:14.503)
That's a big, I really encourage people to go and take a look at that video. It's really clever. I think there's like a bear and a gazelle. It's a little animated video, but it's super cute. And I think people can usually relate to it on some level. I always enjoy talking to you.
Andrea (01:19:26.062)
Yeah.
Andrea (01:19:40.718)
I love it. I think we just were always on a roll. Literally.
Cara Lunsford (01:19:42.225)
I know. We're always on a roll. We're figuring out like we're we get down in it, right? We get dirty. We get mired down. We're like, okay, let's roll around in this shit. And then we're like, okay, let's kind of crawl to the top. Let's crawl out of it. And let's see like what kind of solutions we can offer people. And I think we did that.
Andrea (01:20:02.222)
Yeah.
Andrea (01:20:09.742)
Yeah, I love working both sides. So for those of you that don't know, I just had an article come out in the American Nurses Journal. And this was, it's finally in nursing literature. I didn't write it. I partnered with a professor from Long Island University. And they were, everyone who knows me knows that I do not like to write. So I'm very happy that a professor decided to take on this project with me. And she told my story beautifully.
It's in the American Nurses Journal, so grab yourself a copy. It's for the May edition, and it's literally detailing how I went through nursing school, the level of difficulties, the challenges. It's very detailed, and since it's in the literature now, that means there's evidence -based practice. And so I encourage nurses, nursing educators to...
please read and kind of let's check off that bias from nurses with disabilities, can't be nurses, yes they can. And they can do it from the school level and let's empower more students to get into the profession.
Cara Lunsford (01:21:18.151)
It's so beautiful. Well, I'm going to make sure that I'm going to make sure that that that is available also some link to it because for every episode, we always have the nurse nurse .com forward slash podcast landing page. And so we always try to drop in links and relevant things from the episode. And so I'll make sure that we get that from from you and and we'll we'll drop that into the
Andrea (01:21:19.79)
or even our patients.
Cara Lunsford (01:21:48.105)
landing page making sure people can go find it.
Andrea (01:21:49.582)
Yes, thank you. So go find it and then you guys can literally help your patients get into the profession if this is what they're looking towards. And, you know, I do know that there's so many nurses out there. I thought something has happened in their life that made them want to become a nurse. And now, you know, it's happening where patients are like, okay, it's happened to me and I'm well enough. I want to go back and become a nurse. And there's literature now to be able to support that.
And this is what we want. We want our care to become better. And the only way that it can become better is if we start including voices that we've never heard before. So I'm excited.
Cara Lunsford (01:22:31.431)
So beautiful. Thank you so much for being here with me again and for sharing all your insights and make I want everyone who heard this podcast heard this episode. Make sure that you go follow Andrea like over on the seated nurse. What's your website? You have a website.
Andrea (01:22:32.814)
Yeah
Andrea (01:22:53.454)
Yeah, so it's theseatednurse .com and then if you just do the seated nurse on all your social media platforms, you'll find me. So I'm excited. Yeah, yes. All right, next time, bye.
Cara Lunsford (01:23:02.831)
Perfect. All right, my friend. I love you. I love you. All right, till next time. Bye, friend.
